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MacDee
12-26-2014, 02:25 PM
Freddie is BACK ON THE ROAD!

A summary for those new to the forum...
I had a friend build a hopped up 200 to replace the tired old 170 that was in my '63 hardtop (Freddie). The Club helped me install the engine... in April 2010. I could not get the engine to run properly, but, again with help from the Club, we figured out what it's primary issue was (low vacuum) and got her running decently. Except... I could never get the lifter noise to go away.
Until...
Last June, I was driving her to a show in Bothell (about 10 miles from home) when all of a sudden there was a crescendo of bad noises coming from the engine with a corresponding degradation in performance. I was able to nurse it off into a parking lot and called AAA.
I took her (had her hauled...) to Long's Car Care Center in Woodinville, where it was discovered I had "wiped" the cam. Randy Long showed me some of the bits from the engine after it was torn down. One lifter had its bottom completely ground away! It was just a hollow tube! Because of all the shavings throughout the engine, it needed a complete rebuild. :eek:
So Freddie has been in Randy's shop since early July until just this morning, when I picked her up. She runs BETTER THAN EVER!! [yay]
Thanks to the PROFESSIONALS.

It has been an expensive lesson, but a lesson none the less!

The engine, as I said, is a 200. It has a Classic Inlines aluminum head with a 390 cfm Holley four-barrel, headers, and it had "way too much cam". We had used a Clay Smith 274-degree cam. It was way too much cam, for sure, but the destructive part was that it also had "way too much" valve spring! I had ordered springs with dampers from Classic Inlines: 180 pounds open, but was sent the hell-for-bent dual springs with 260 pounds open. Okay, I got more that I paid for... so we used 'em!
Simply put, I learned you really shouldn't put that much force on a flat-tappet cam!

This new build uses a more conservative 264-degree cam, and softer springs. She's now +.060 on the cylinder bores, with all new bearings, and a fresh balance. The other main thing I learned is that you cannot assume the pin holes at the front of the cam are properly located. They ended up needing to install the cam one tooth off to get it timed correctly! With an aftermarket cam, you can't just line up the marks and go!

So, now that she's back in the game, I'll try to be a little more active in the Club/Forum. It's been four years of hell, but the silver lining is starting to show....

redfalken
12-26-2014, 07:03 PM
That's really great news Gary! And it's always nice to be able to put your finger on the problem, especially after the months and months of trying to figure out what was going on.

Now it's time to have fun! :3g:

ew1usnr
12-28-2014, 06:35 AM
Hello, Gary.

What do you estimate the horsepower to be for your modified 200?

Dennis.

4455

Jeff W
12-28-2014, 12:18 PM
That is the best news I have heard all week.

Now that it's back on the road and reliable, what are you going to change/upgrade next?

:shift:

MacDee
12-28-2014, 01:04 PM
Hello, Gary.

What do you estimate the horsepower to be for your modified 200?

Dennis.

4455

I had done a bunch of "runs" on Desktop Dyno way back when I was trying to decide what to do. With the 264-degree cam, I was getting numbers in the low-to-mid 200's. Of course, I really think numbers from Desktop Dyno tend to be optimistic.

That is the best news I have heard all week.

Now that it's back on the road and reliable, what are you going to change/upgrade next?

:shift:

Where do I begin?
I've got a new shift collar ready to go in. Is that what's needed to restore the reverse lockout? The shift linkage is really marginal. She needs new door seals... A GOOD exhaust system... Wife wants shoulder belts. That will be a challenge with a hardtop....

Jeff W
12-28-2014, 07:22 PM
Is the shift collar sloppy? I think the dropping into reverse issue is more related to a worn detent plate (didn't you put in a new one when converting to the C4?) or a worn tab on the shifter arm that goes into the detent plate.

I have seen parts to install shoulder belts in Mustang convertibles. I think that would give you some installation ideas.

MacDee
12-30-2014, 09:13 AM
Is the shift collar sloppy? I think the dropping into reverse issue is more related to a worn detent plate (didn't you put in a new one when converting to the C4?) or a worn tab on the shifter arm that goes into the detent plate.

I did put in a new detent plate at swap day. But we discovered when we hooked up the linkage that there is absolutely no detent action in the column itself! My shift collar is shot, that's why I was (am?) suspecting it is the culprit. Perhaps I should get a new shifter arm too?

I have seen parts to install shoulder belts in Mustang convertibles. I think that would give you some installation ideas.

I have seen those. In fact, I purchased a set of continuous belts so I could do just that. I got cold feet when the straps of the set I purchased had a much darker blue than my interior, and they appear to be sewn such that the buckles would be upside down once hooked. I also don't like that the belt comes over your shoulder from low/behind. I know this would be uncomfortable, and I think it is also unsafe. Contemporary convertibles utilize a loop adjacent to the head rest that routes the belt as if it were attached at a higher location. I've considered using late-model Mustang convertible seats, but I REALLY LIKE the looks of my stock factory buckets, and don't want to change that.
I swear I once saw an early Mustang at a show that had stock seats but used some sort of aftermarket head rests with shoulder belt loops adapted into them. I've looked on the internet and found head rests that adapt to stock Mustang seats, but haven't found anything that incorporates a shoulder belt loop.
I'm in a quandary....

dhbfaster
12-30-2014, 09:52 AM
Here's one idea I happened to run across for the shoulder belt, for a mustang...it uses a part from a ford van.

http://68vert.blogspot.com/2013/05/safety-first-shoulder-belts.html

BillP 98201
12-30-2014, 11:22 AM
Glad to hear she's back on the road! I recently met a man who wants to put a 200 in his Ranchero. I will show him your story [yay]

MacDee
01-02-2015, 12:55 PM
Here's one idea I happened to run across for the shoulder belt, for a mustang...it uses a part from a ford van.
Nice setup! Of course, my hardtop doesn't have a convertible top well to provide the attach point used in that installation. I still think I'll need a loop on the seat or attached to the interior quarter panel to position the loop above the sill line (sort of a pseudo-B pillar).

MacDee
01-06-2015, 12:31 PM
We took Freddie out for some "speedometer calibration" runs the other day. You know, drive past one of those "Your Speed Is" signs and compare to what your speedometer says. The speedometer is way off since swapping in the C4. We have a pretty accurate chart now that we'll use until I get around to swapping in a different speed-o drive gear.
We then just went for a drive along a higher speed highway. At about 45 [actual] mph, she seems to begin to produce an acoustic "beat", and it seems to get worse as speed increases. It's really annoying, and it didn't do this BEFORE the rebuild! I'm wondering if she maybe lost a wheel weight....
Any ideas?

Jeff W
01-06-2015, 02:15 PM
Did your rebuild guy spin balance the rotating assembly?

Did the shop hack jack up the car using the drive shaft as a lifting point?

Did they forget to reinstall or tighten the transmission mount?

Hope it is something easy. You deserve a break today:shift:

MacDee
01-12-2015, 03:40 PM
So we got the wheels balanced at the Goodyear place in Woodinville yesterday. We took her for a "high-speed" drive again this afternoon, and, alas, the "beat" is still there. It's very prevalent at about 50 mph, but here's a hint: The FREQUENCY of the "beat" is dependent on LOAD, not speed. The frequency increases significantly when we go up a slight grade or accelerate, and slows down to almost going away while coasting downhill.
Could it be something to do with the torque converter? The relative speeds of the turbine and stator in the torque converter vary by load, don't they?

Oh, and, yes, the engine was fully balanced. The shop, I'm sure, did not jack the car up on the drive shaft!
Forget to tighten the transmission mount? Hmmm... Or the flex plate?

Luva65wagon
01-12-2015, 04:23 PM
Same U-joints? Maybe all this new "Saturn 5" launch torque has made one of them fail? They would vary with load as well.

What's the frequency?

Jeff W
01-12-2015, 06:26 PM
I carefully read your posts again and can't see the specifics...

Do you FEEL anything or is it strictly "noise". I know it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

MacDee
01-13-2015, 12:54 PM
Same U-joints? Maybe all this new "Saturn 5" launch torque has made one of them fail? They would vary with load as well.

What's the frequency?

I carefully read your posts again and can't see the specifics...

Do you FEEL anything or is it strictly "noise". I know it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

It is definitely FELT, but it acts like an acoustic dissonance. ;:)

While cruising along at about 50 mph, there is a vibration that sort of grows and subsides, grows and subsides, over and over, continuously, at about 1 cycle per second. If I feed a little more throttle, as when going up a slight grade, the frequency of the vibration rise-and-fall cycle will increase to... I dunno... 3 or 4 cycles per second without any significant change in road speed.

This is why I'm suspecting it has something to do with the torque converter. The torque converter has within it a Stator and a Turbine which spin on a common axis, one driving the other. Because of slippage, their relative speeds will always be slightly different. However, the more load you have, the more speed difference there will be between the Turbine and the Stator. I'm not sure, exactly, how this relates to the vibration, but it's the only thing I can think of that would have two components spinning out-of-synch. Maybe the converter isn't quite centered on the flex plate so the turbine is slightly off-center?

Or am I just over-thinking this...?:confused:

I'm going to take Randy Long for a ride. It will be up to him to fix it!

Luva65wagon
01-13-2015, 01:37 PM
I have a very similar harmonic vibration post V8/C4 install in the Flarechero. A part of me thinks it is drive-line angle issues, which I never checked. :doh: Shouldn't be an issue for you with the stock components, but I had to rig a lot of mounts to get that thing shoe-horned in. I saw in a CarCraft article a phone app available to do that. Someday, when I have a flat surface available to me again.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1501-tremec-driveline-angle-finder-app/

But u-joints failing can do exactly what you are describing.

Not that the torque converter couldn't also be failing - it is all but impossible to install incorrectly. The only way I've ever seen an install failure is when there is a drain-plug on the converter that doesn't find its way into a hole drilled into the flexplate. The converter has a lead-in to the crank that centers it.

Jeff W
01-13-2015, 04:02 PM
Can you remind me, does your dual exhaust have a cross-over?

I think you are getting some kind of harmonic pulsar thing caused by coincidental chamber sizes of your mufflers and the distance to your crossover pipe.

Too wacky?

MacDee
01-16-2015, 12:24 PM
Can you remind me, does your dual exhaust have a cross-over?

I think you are getting some kind of harmonic pulsar thing caused by coincidental chamber sizes of your mufflers and the distance to your crossover pipe.

Too wacky?

Yeah, I think you're wacky....

Exhaust does have a cross-over via an x-pipe arrangement. The pipes come together just downstream of the header outlets before going off on their separate routes back to the mufflers.
I'm sure that's not it, though. It didn't do this before the rebuild!

Besides, I think you're just yanking my chain.

Luva65wagon
01-16-2015, 01:02 PM
Jeff would never do that.
:rolleyes:

Jeff W
01-16-2015, 05:16 PM
I'm sure that's not it, though. It didn't do this before the rebuild!

Besides, I think you're just yanking my chain.


I am being thoughtful and thinking outside of the box. Your engine is breathing better now than before and with different valve timing. Don't underestimate the power of air and harmonics. I can drive all over at any speed in my van with the windows down without problem. When we are in the CRV and crack a window, between 45 MPH and 55 MPH the pulsing drives me bonkers. Drive faster or slower, or open a second window, and all is fine.

Without experiencing the sound myself, hard to narrow in. Maybe you need to offer rides around the block:)

Here is a little physics discussion that is interesting:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/acoustics-engineering-automotive-exhaust-harmonics.475510/

pbrown
01-16-2015, 10:45 PM
Pull the drive shaft and have it checked. Maybe it got bent or banged up or something while the engine was out. I also seem to recall that it was a little on the short side.

MacDee
01-17-2015, 10:34 AM
I am being thoughtful ...

Here is a little physics discussion that is interesting:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/acoustics-engineering-automotive-exhaust-harmonics.475510/

Very interesting... A new exhaust system is at the top of my list anyway!

Pull the drive shaft and have it checked. Maybe it got bent or banged up or something while the engine was out. I also seem to recall that it was a little on the short side.

You remember correctly. The shaft is a bit too short. Maybe I've just been lucky and my luck has run out!

I took Randy for a ride, and he seems to be suspecting wheel bearings. I can't recall if we replaced them at the time of the disc brake conversion, or just repacked them. :confused:

Jeff W
01-17-2015, 11:55 AM
Very interesting... A new exhaust system is at the top of my list anyway!



You remember correctly. The shaft is a bit too short. Maybe I've just been lucky and my luck has run out!

:confused:

you may remember that I have a driveshaft for your layout (C4 with little rear). You are welcome to borrow it for troubleshooting. I can bring it to the meeting next week.

MacDee
01-20-2015, 02:31 PM
you may remember that I have a driveshaft for your layout (C4 with little rear). You are welcome to borrow it for troubleshooting. I can bring it to the meeting next week.

I DO remember that you have that driveshaft! As I recall, its u-joint to u-joint length is 52 5/8 inches, which is 5/8 inch longer than mine.

I may, or may not, be at the meeting. If you happen to have the driveshaft with you, and I happen to also be at the meeting, I may or may not take you up on your offer.
How's THAT for decisive!! [thumb]

Jeff W
01-20-2015, 08:31 PM
Almost enough of a reason for me to dig it out of the storage slot and load it up.

I thought it was 52 - 1/2... I can check if that helps.

MacDee
01-21-2015, 10:04 AM
Plans have firmed up...
I will be at the meeting tonight, but I will NOT take your driveshaft. Freddie's going back to Long's next week for new wheel bearings AND to get her driveshaft lengthened and u-joints checked/renewed.

Thank you for the offer, anyway!

MacDee
03-17-2015, 11:33 AM
Randy Long has tried tracing my vibration problem, and we have renewed several things along the way: Wheel Bearings, Axle Bearings, Rear Brakes.... Several things have been checked and ruled out: driveshaft/u-joints, torque converter.
He has run the car, in gear, up on a lift and traced the vibration along the entire drive train with a stethoscope. The only thing left to check now is the engine itself. :WHATTHE:
To do that, he wants to run the engine without the torque converter or trans hooked up. And to do THAT, he need to bolt up a FLYWHEEL.

He can't find one....

Does anyone out there have a FLYWHEEL for a 200 six that I could... BORROW?

Luva65wagon
03-17-2015, 11:38 AM
I do... would you like me to bring it to the meeting tomorrow?

SmithKid
03-17-2015, 12:54 PM
Is a bare flywheel going to be heavy enough without the added weight of disc/pressure plate? I remember back in flywheel weighting/lightening days that a little weight loss off the flywheel produced noticeable vibration in order to gain a faster revving engine. Of course, that was on 2 cycle motorcycle engines, and I actually added weight to a crazy-revving Suzuki 400 to smooth it out.

SmithKid
03-17-2015, 03:46 PM
What does this mean? : The threads below have not been updated since your last visit but still contain unread posts. I get this when looking at this thread, but believe I've read the entire thread

MacDee
03-17-2015, 06:51 PM
I do... would you like me to bring it to the meeting tomorrow?

YES! I'll be there.

Thank you, Roger!

Jeff W
03-17-2015, 07:24 PM
I guess the good news to all this replacement is your car should be like new when it's over. Nothing wrong with getting new bearings and brakes. I think you will owe me a Coke when we discover it is the exhaust:ROTFLMAO:

Luva65wagon
03-18-2015, 09:53 AM
Well... it took some digging... but I found it. Not sure why what you are looking for is always in the last place you look, but I found my flywheel and it also has the pressure-plate and disc attached. More inertia I guess.

I didn't think about it until I was already on my way into work this morning that you may need different flywheel to crank bolts (longer?) for this. Maybe not. I'm sure I have some... somewhere. He'll know if there is enough thread engagement or not.

Sorry Freddie is being such a pain. Seems to be the norm for me lately. Nothing I have built in the past few years seems to be working right out the gate. When doing my 289 swap on the Flarechero the C4 had to be pulled due to the wrong flexplate (had a 50oz instead of the 28oz balance) and now on another car the tranny is coming out because they sent a 157 tooth flywheel instead of a 164 tooth - and it wasn't caught in time. Trust me - I don't like taking things apart once they are already together! But it tends to be happening more and more!

Maybe it's me! :NERVOUS:

:doh:

MacDee
03-18-2015, 11:20 AM
I think you will owe me a Coke when we discover it is the exhaust:ROTFLMAO:

To find out for sure, all I gotta do is convince Randy to run the thing UNCORKED! :WHATTHE: ...right?


Sorry Freddie is being such a pain...


At least there is PROGRESS!!! [thumb]

MacDee
03-25-2015, 11:34 AM
So...
Randy installed Roger's flywheel and has run the engine without the transmission.
The vibration was GONE!!

He's having his transmission guy take another look...

Personally, I still suspect the torque converter... (...or the flex plate?) :confused:

Luva65wagon
03-25-2015, 01:37 PM
Those are about the only two options - but glad you narrowed it down!

SmithKid
03-25-2015, 01:45 PM
It is unclear to me from your past posting regarding the trouble-shooting. You said:

"He has run the car, in gear, up on a lift and traced the vibration along the entire drive train with a stethoscope. The only thing left to check now is the engine itself."

Does this also mean he ran the engine with the drive shaft out (tail shaft yoke required)? Or in Neutral? This, combined with Roger's flywheel testing would positively point to flex-plate, torque converter, or C-4.

Luva65wagon
03-26-2015, 08:51 AM
It is unclear to me how this thread could be called 'Freddie's back on the road' when clearly 'Freddie is back in the shop' would be a better title.

:D

But Gene has a point. We've only narrowed it down to "not engine" and there is a lot going rear-ward, unless, of course, it was vibrating just running in Park and now isn't with my flywheel. That would leave it to be only flex-plate or torque converter. The torque converter should be neutral balanced and I'm not aware of the flywheel/flex-plate on a 200 having any imbalance like the 28/50oz option on a 289/302. Have never researched this.

MacDee
03-26-2015, 11:37 AM
Does this also mean he ran the engine with the drive shaft out (tail shaft yoke required)? Or in Neutral? This, combined with Roger's flywheel testing would positively point to flex-plate, torque converter, or C-4.
I don't know if he ran the engine without the driveshaft... or in neutral. One thing I did notice for the short time I had her back: the little hula girl on the dash danced a "shimmy", on and off, at about three-second intervals, when the engine was idling. And I don't think it mattered if it was in gear or not....
...and I never noticed her doing that before the rebuild.

Can I change the Thread title?
"Freddie Was Back on the Road, but Not for Long"

SmithKid
03-26-2015, 12:09 PM
Or maybe.... Freddy Will be back on the road.

Luva65wagon
03-26-2015, 02:47 PM
Or Maybe - The Curse of The Freddie! Coming to a theater near you.

MacDee
05-14-2015, 11:59 AM
As some of you already know...
Freddie is BACK ON THE ROAD!!
I picked her up from Long's Car Care yesterday morning. The culprit turned out to be the torque converter.
She now has new wheel bearings, new axle bearings and seals, new rear brakes and wheel cylinders, a newly rebuilt transmission... upgraded with V8 clutch packs, and... a new torque converter. In the past 11 months, I have just about doubled the total investment I've made in this car. :NERVOUS:

However, she now runs and drives great! :p

See y'all at the Ford Picnic...

MacDee
05-21-2015, 09:47 AM
So...
We took a little drive last weekend. Did some shopping, and when we took off to go home, I inadvertently selected second gear instead of drive. Since the reverse lock-out was marginal, whenever I do this (this was the third time I've ever done it...), I pull off, stop, reselect Drive, and go again. Wife said, "I'm not riding in this thing again until that is fixed." So, back to Long's she went with the new shift collar in the front seat.
Got her back last night, new shift collar installed. The shifter works GREAT now!! I would have no qualms about shifting while in motion now.
But...
On the way home from picking her up, I pulled off of the main highway on to the road approaching our neighborhood, and she LOST ALL DRIVE! Acted like it slipped into neutral, but that wasn't it. I could shift, and it would feel normal, and I could hear/feel the transmission responding, but no drive to the wheels! When I shifted into gear, there would be a mild metal-to-metal scraping sound, but no drive. Shift into neutral or Park, and the scraping sound stops.
Isn't there, like, one band that engages the drive? Maybe it broke, or popped loose, or something?
She'll be on the tow truck back to Long's again this morning. :(

Luva65wagon
05-21-2015, 10:49 AM
Man, you can't win for loosing! It's beginning to sound like you need to change the name of this thread to Freddie's Back in the Shop!

Or maybe that has already been suggested in this thread at some point.

:doh:

Definitely sound like either a band popped loose or the torque converter shredded itself. Maybe it's time for a 5-speed... :confused:

Maybe Freddie has a last name and it is Kruger?

:WHATTHE:

MacDee
05-22-2015, 11:37 AM
Just heard back from the shop. The NEW torque converter, indeed, shredded itself!

MacDee
05-30-2015, 06:16 AM
Maybe Freddie has a last name and it is Kruger?

:WHATTHE:
There were no more torque converters available locally, so they're importing one from Michigan!! Won't be here 'till next week. Even the Ford Picnic is looking questionable at this point.

Speaking of luck... Here's a story I've never told before:

When I put the new seat covers in back in 2001, I found two little pyramids under the back seat. I remembered there once was a "fad" about pyramids, they were supposedly mystical and brought you good luck. Some previous owner of the car was superstitious, I figured, and put them in there for good luck! I'm not superstitious, so I didn't put them back when I replaced the seat. They've been sitting on my work bench ever since.
4897
It looked like they might be valuable, otherwise, so I was just keeping them. From a recent search on the Internet, I discovered they're worth... about $15 each. So they're not valuable. But...

The first thing I'm gonna do when I get Freddie back,
...is SHOVE THOSE THINGS BACK UNDER THE SEAT!!

ew1usnr
05-30-2015, 06:42 AM
Wow! That explains everything.

You offended the Pharaohs and they inflicted the mummy's curse.
4898
(You probably had the same expression when your new torque converter disintegrated).

Put them back! Put them back!

BadBird
05-30-2015, 10:21 AM
Which is worse. The mummy curse of sitting on two sharp things poking through the rear seat. Probably the mummy curse.

This has got to be the first time pyramids and mummies curses was on a car forum. :banana::NERVOUS::BEER:. Larry

Luva65wagon
05-31-2015, 08:41 AM
You should throw a few dollar bills under the seat for good measure. They have pyramids on them too. That ought to help future products installed on the car to survive for sure!

:rolleyes:

It'll give some future owner a booty to extract years down the road. That 'is' for certain.

MacDee
06-06-2015, 09:28 AM
I got Freddie back last night. She runs and drives great!! (As she did the last time I tried to drive her home from the repair shop!)
I put the pyramids back under the seats...

I'm hoping to have enough confidence in her by the time of the Maltby show to take her there. It's only five miles from home....

Luva65wagon
06-06-2015, 10:38 AM
Come on Gary! Have faith in the pyramids... and AAA.

[AGREE]

dhbfaster
06-07-2015, 12:02 AM
I'm thinking I can use some of those pyramids on my first drive....:rocker:

BadBird
06-07-2015, 07:20 PM
Are you putting three pyramids in the car. AAA looks like three pyramids to me.

MacDee
06-16-2015, 11:48 AM
Well, we took Freddie for a nice long drive last weekend. We took her out on to SR202 between Duvall and Carnation and got her up to a steady 50 mph. No vibration!! She ran and drove very nicely, and she didn't break down! [thumb]
She'll be making her public RE-debut at the Maltby show this Saturday (6/20). Hope to see some of y'all there!

ew1usnr
06-16-2015, 03:20 PM
Well, we took Freddie for a nice long drive last weekend. We took her out on to SR202 between Duvall and Carnation and got her up to a steady 50 mph. No vibration!! She ran and drove very nicely, and she didn't break down! [thumb]!

Hello, Gary.

You are cruising with the protection of the Pharaohs.
4940

BadBird
06-16-2015, 08:00 PM
Gary, I am very anxious to see the completed car. Carol and I, with her mother are in Ogden Utah this evening and hopefully I will make the Maltby show. See you and others there I hope. Larry

MacDee
07-11-2015, 09:08 AM
Freddie is running really well. We took her for a nice long drive (if you call 40 miles a nice long drive) and had no issues.
Well... one issue...
She tends to want to quit if you let off the gas really quick.
Say she's idling... goose it once and let off quickly; the engine speed will drop way below idle speed before she'll catch and continue running. On the trip, I was stopped at the entrance to the highway waiting to make a right turn. (There's a blind curve to my left so I can't see approaching cars until they're right there.) I start to move out to make my right turn, and suddenly there's a car rounding the blind curve. I let off, hit the brakes, and the engine quit.

I'm afraid to speculate, because this thing has been tuned by a PROFESSIONAL. I'm concerned, though, that maybe some of the stuff I did to the distributor and carburetor while trying to get the "previous build" to run may be jeopardizing its tune now. What I did may not be appropriate for the new, "shorter", cam:

The distributor has the flyweights arranged to provide the maximum amount of mechanical advance, 26 degrees if I remember correctly, and I put in the lightest springs on both weights. It's got a really quick, and long curve!

We (well... Pat) modified the Idle Fuel Restrictor port on the metering block in the Holley to provide more fuel at idle. It was the BREAKTHROUGH for the problem of the thing not being able to idle! I subsequently worked out throttle-response issues by going to richer main jets. The carb originally had #51 jets, it's now running #57"s.

I told all this to Professional who did the latest build, but I don't think he touched anything in the distributor or carb. I don't know how he decided on the initial timing, and I'm sure he only adjusted the idle mixture screws on the carb.

Any ideas or comments on the "wanting to quit" issue? ...or tune-up techniques? I'm tempted to try to re-tune it myself, but I'm very anxious about changing what the Professional has done!

Luva65wagon
07-11-2015, 09:37 AM
Gary,

Because you have an automatic you'll want to add an anti-stall dashpot to allow the idle to come to the stop slower. With an automatic there is a tendency for the torque converter to load the engine on deceleration and cause a stall condition. Flywheels in manual cars have more inertia and prevent this. You can easily add one to the Holley by ordering their kit. I'm on my phone answering but you should be able to look it up on Summit and then order on Amazon if you choose.

Hope this helps.

MacDee
07-11-2015, 03:24 PM
Hmm...
It does it even at idle in neutral.

Though...

A dashpot would probably help that too!

Thanks, Roger!

MacDee
07-11-2015, 04:13 PM
Okay...
I found two possible brackets at Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-20-58/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-20-72/overview/

...and a dashpot:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-11-4

From the description for the dashpot:
"These Holley carburetor dashpots are designed to be used on manual transmission vehicles. They will prevent engine stalling on sudden deceleration, fits most Holley dashpot brackets."

I can't see how the bracket(s) would fit, and can't find an installation guide to clarify. How would I know which bracket to get, and why does it say the dashpot is to be used on manual transmission vehicles? :confused:

MacDee
07-13-2015, 01:49 PM
I'll be taking Freddie to her SECOND public appearance since the "rebuild" this Sunday at Country Village in Bothell. At the Maltby show, a representative of Corvairs Northwest invited me to enter their Orphan Car show at Country Village, so I did!

ew1usnr
07-13-2015, 04:32 PM
... why does it say the dashpot is to be used on manual transmission vehicles? :confused:

I think that they made a mistake (see notes below).

Here are some photos of the dashpot and bracket on my Autolite 2100 carburetor to maybe help you visualize how your bracket and dahpot might fit together:
5014

5015

5016

5017

See Page 8 on: http://www.hansenwebdesign.com/truck/files/manuals/service/18%20Carburetor.pdf

Tech Notes: "Engines equipped with automatic transmissions require a dashpot anti-stall device as protection against loading the engine when the accelerator pedal is suddenly depressed and released. The dashpot retards the closing rate of the throttle plate as it approaches the idle position, allowing the engine to dissipate the raw fuel discharged into the intake manifold by the accelerating pump. The dashpot slows the final phases of throttle plate closing by means of a spring-loaded diaphragm. When the accelerator pedal is released, the throttle plate approaches the idle position and a tab on the throttle lever contacts the lower edge of the dashpot lever. This rotates the dashpot lever, causing the dashpot lever to impinge on the dashpot diaphragm rod. As the rod is moved into the dashpot, the tapered step of the rod engages the diaphragm washer. Continued movement of the rod will cause a corresponding movement of the diaphragm, compressing the air in the diaphragm chamber above the diaphragm. The compressed air bleeds out of the diaphragm chamber through a groove in the seat of the diaphragm washer, retarding the closing speed of the throttle plate. This allows the engine to properly use the charge of accelerating fuel, preventing stalling from an over-rich condition in the manifold. When the throttle is again opened, the pressure is released from the dashpot diaphragm rod and the dashpot return spring moves the rod off its seat in the diaphragm washer. This allows air to flow back into the diaphragm chamber as the spring returns the rod and diaphragm to their original position.”

Luva65wagon
07-13-2015, 05:06 PM
Gary - would be helpful to see similar pics of your carb near the throttle lever. And yeah, I think that was a typo on the manual transmission thigh.

MacDee
07-13-2015, 07:01 PM
The description on the bracket says "for Holley carburetors with two tapped holes in the throttle body...". I looked at my carb and saw the two holes. With that, and the pictures Dennis provided, I think I can do it!

Thank you, guys!

Jeff W
07-13-2015, 07:34 PM
The description on the bracket says "for Holley carburetors with two tapped holes in the throttle body...". I looked at my carb and saw the two holes. With that, and the pictures Dennis provided, I think I can do it!

Thank you, guys!

I KNOW you can do it!

All my Autolite 1100's had a Dashpot for automatics and none for the standard. It is molded into the body on that one.

Proof readers - hard to get good help these days.

Luva65wagon
07-14-2015, 01:43 PM
Passing this on - just in case the instructions are not clear on this issue.

Though a dashpot has been used as the idle stop by some (I've have the pleasure of working on) it isn't supposed to be. The dashpot should start to work around, maybe, 1500 RPM and should control the deceleration the rest of the way towards idle. This is debatable and adjustable by you. Regardless, there should be some amount of travel the dashpot plunger can still travel while the idle stop lever is against the idle screw. The dashpot is simply a "slow-down device" and not a stop. Don't let it be the idle stop and depress the plunger all the way to its physical, internal, stop.

In addition you mentioned (after-the-fact) that it was dying just sitting there idling in neutral. The dashpot will not solve this issue. But I say address one issue at a time. If the dying at idle in neutral still occurs afterward, this may just be a idle screw or air/fuel adjustment.

MacDee
07-14-2015, 02:14 PM
Passing this on - just in case the instructions are not clear on this issue.

Though a dashpot has been used as the idle stop by some (I've have the pleasure of working on) it isn't supposed to be. The dashpot should start to work around, maybe, 1500 RPM and should control the deceleration the rest of the way towards idle. This is debatable and adjustable by you. Regardless, there should be some amount of travel the dashpot plunger can still travel while the idle stop lever is against the idle screw. The dashpot is simply a "slow-down device" and not a stop. Don't let it be the idle stop and depress the plunger all the way to its physical, internal, stop.
I intend to adjust the dashpot such that there is just enough throttle-closing delay to prevent the "underrun".

In addition you mentioned (after-the-fact) that it was dying just sitting there idling in neutral. The dashpot will not solve this issue. But I say address one issue at a time. If the dying at idle in neutral still occurs afterward, this may just be a idle screw or air/fuel adjustment.
From Dennis' explanation, it seem like (I hope, anyway...) that maybe it will. If the problem is indeed the rich shot of gas from the accelerator pump, the dashpot would help that, too!

Luva65wagon
07-14-2015, 03:03 PM
We'll see. That entire explanation seemed odd to me (no offence to you for posting it Dennis) but why would this not also be an issue with a manual car and require the same thing? The other benefits may exist, as noted, but it isn't clear from what I read how this relates to manual versus automatic. And only automatic cars got dashpots.

I tutored under some pretty wise mechanics in my youth and I recall a discussion I had with one of them on this subject. I had a '62 Falcon I had swapped in a 289 from my Fairlane into it and had similar stalling issues. Drove me crazy. I changed carbs and didn't have a dashpot. They explained it just about the same way I did that it had to do with the "free-spinning" inertial effect of a manual-clutch flywheel versus that of a low inertia flex-plate with an inertia-robbing torque converter which tended to load the motor on deceleration. The dashpot created an artificial "inertial effect" similar to the clutch flywheel. I've never verified what they said in this age of the Internet, but it still makes sense to me.

Luva65wagon
07-14-2015, 03:08 PM
Interesting how you think of something the instant you hit "Submit!"

Perhaps this burn condition occurs because on a manual car the fuel is given a chance to burn whereas an automatic car it isn't. So both explanations may be correct and one is the effect of the other. Given the inertial effect of a manual flywheel perhaps the burn-time is extended and you don't create a rich stall condition.

Gosh, now I've got to find out more on this. :doh:

MacDee
08-23-2015, 10:46 AM
The Forum is pretty quite, so I'll throw out this bit of silliness...

I showed my car at a little show at Brittany Park Assisted Living Center in Woodinville a couple of weeks ago. While there, I noticed a woman who seemed to have some authority at the facility in that she seemed to be directing some of the volunteers and staff and was chatting up the residents and car owners.
As she approached my car, I noticed her name tag said "Freddie". "FREDDIE!" I shouted. Her eyes lit up, she looked at me, and her smile turned into a "do I know you?" kind of a look. I then pointed to my car and said "HER name is Freddie, too!" I showed her Freddie's "baby book" which explains that her name is Freddie because of the front license plate frame (Fred's Fine Cars), but that she is actually a she because of, obviously, the baby blue color and the whitewall tires.
Freddie, the woman, turned out to be the Marketing Director for the place, and she was named after her father. He died before she was born, and her mother had decided to name her baby after her late husband regardless of gender.
What a delightful coincidence...

Luva65wagon
08-24-2015, 02:26 PM
I still think it's all closer to a Freddie Kruger sort of thing when it comes to Freddie... but that's just me sayin'

:NERVOUS:

As you'll read in my thread... it is contagious.

Cool story though.

MacDee
01-14-2016, 12:43 PM
Haven't been working on the car much, but I did finally get the dashpot installed... not that it did much good. More about that in a minute.
I ended up buying BOTH of the brackets shown for Holley carbs in the Summit catalog. Neither one fit. The holes in my base plate for attaching the bracket were too small to use the screws supplied with the brackets.
One of the brackets appeared as if it would pick up both of those hole locations, so I made some "bushings" to fill the holes in the bracket so I could use smaller screws which fit the holes in the base plate.
That worked great... but the bracket placed the dashpot WAY TOO CLOSE to the throttle lever.
Okay... I figured out out the other bracket fit, using ONE of the holes in the base plate and one of the carb mounting studs. That one positioned the dashpot just about right. Cool!
Well, I couldn't seem to get the dashpot adjusted so it did any good! It would either hold the throttle open, or else it would not be effective. I couldn't find any middle ground! In the meantime, I stripped the stupid threads on the PLASTIC body of the dashpot!! I finally just took the thing off and threw it on my workbench.

Subsequently...
I found this video demonstrating how the dashpot is SUPPOSED to work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJuzhLorW1A

After watching that, I think I've figured out what my problem was (is)... my throttle return springs aren't strong enough! If I had the dashpot adjusted anywhere close to where it should be, the throttle lever would simply stop as soon as it reached the extended dashpot, and not close any further. The return springs couldn't overcome the friction inherent in the dashpot!

So I guess my next step is to get some stronger springs, and a new dashpot.

Are throttle return springs generally available at auto parts stores? I really don't want to buy another spring without giving it a "pull test" and comparing it with my current ones. Also, am I stuck with buying another stupid plastic Holley dashpot, or is there something available that fits the same but is made out of METAL?

Jeff W
01-14-2016, 01:34 PM
Gary – I can’t answer your questions, but I do recommend you start a vigorous exercise routine so you have the strength to overcome the added pressure that will be required on the accelerator pedal after spring installation.:ROTFLMAO:

Luva65wagon
01-14-2016, 01:54 PM
Gary,

You can buy springs in a kit with multiple sizes or you can buy them individually. As time marches forward I find I have a box full of springs since you can never tell what you'll need. I found McLendon's has a very nice assortment of individual springs of many shapes and sizes. I was so impressed I took a picture that day:

5437

I'm just a little perturbed by making adjustable threaded things out of plastic. They do the same thing with those under-dash brake light switches. Good luck not messing one of those up. You may be stuck with the Holley dashpot. I tried to find one different when I added the dashpot to my Ranchero and other that some NOS thing they are not readily available.

Have not been able to watch video yet, but having adjusted so many of these it sounds from your description you are on the right track.

BadBird
01-14-2016, 01:56 PM
I know that there are metal holley dashpots. Not sure which one you would need. Go to ebay. As far as the spring, when I had the single four barrel it had a dual spring set up that was pretty stiff.
Jeff's sadistic :ROTFLMAO: answer sure got a laugh out of me. Jeff, what would we do without you.
I didn't realize the dashpots were so expensive. Before I would worry about the spring issue, and you check if pushing back on the throttle to the dashpot works? Best of luck. Larry

MacDee
01-14-2016, 04:13 PM
... but I do recommend you start a vigorous exercise routine so you have the strength to overcome the added pressure that will be required on the accelerator pedal after spring installation.:ROTFLMAO:

:p
My setup uses dual springs, but they are very light. The gas pedal is so light it's actually quite touchy. I would prefer a stronger spring!

I did see a metal dashpot on the interweb that looked about the same size as the Holley, but it was $93!! Not gonna spend that much for a "maybe it'll fit" part!

Thanks, guys!

Jeff W
01-14-2016, 10:16 PM
Can you poke around the Pull a Part and see if you can find something that may work off another rig? Likely be only a few bucks. You can give all the springs a good feel and maybe find a factory metal dashpot. Wear you galoshes.

MacDee
01-17-2016, 08:00 AM
Okay, I found a dashpot on ebay. It was even listed as an "NOS 1963 Falcon" dashpot. Must be the same one Dennis has on his 260! It is all metal, looks exactly right, and I couldn't resist the coincidence!

It should arrive around Jan 26.

MacDee
01-17-2016, 08:04 AM
Naw, it's not the same as Dennis'. I just went back and looked at his pictures. It looks like a perfect replacement for the stupid Holley one, though!

ew1usnr
01-17-2016, 08:32 AM
Naw, it's not the same as Dennis'.

Hello, Gary.

I looked at my notes (I keep good notes): On 8/02/13, after first checking unsuccessfully with Advance and O’Reilly auto parts, I bought a new Autolite 2100/4100 Series Carburetor Dashpot w/ Bracket off e-bay for $49.99 + $5.80 shipping = $55.79. The Champion Auto Group “had these made specifically for Champion Mustang! Brand new dashpots with brackets for the Autolite 2100 and 4100 series carburetors. These are exactly the same as the original dashpots down to the patent number on the reverse side. Includes mounting screw, dashpot, bracket, and mounting nut."

I had thought that $50 was expensive, but I could not find the dashpot anywhere else.

Flash forward to 1/17/16. I looked on e-bay and saw that they are now selling that dashpot for $249.99!!!!! :WHATTHE:

See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Autolite-2100-4100-Series-Carburetor-Dashpot-w-Bracket-BACKORDERED-/280855747314?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

5445

Jeff W
01-17-2016, 11:31 AM
Plus they are on back order!

I did look on the Champion website and they are still listed for your original $54 price. The ebay seller is getting a pretty good mark up, but good gig if you can get it.

http://www.championcarburetor.com/5874-autolite-2100-4100-series-carburetor-dashpot-w-bracket-p-10627.html

MacDee
01-30-2016, 11:36 AM
Okay. I'm finally at my wit's end.
I installed the new dash pot, tried to adjust the throttle return springs so there would be significant installed pre-load. Still, the dash pot doesn't let the throttle drop gently back to idle like it's supposed to... it JUST WON'T LET THE THROTTLE DROP BACK TO IDLE AT ALL! :mad:

The only thing I can think of is that the surface on the throttle lever that addresses the end of the dash pot plunger isn't quite perpendicular to the plunger. Could a slight side load on the plunger cause it to bind up? The only way I could see to remedy that would be to bend the tab on the throttle lever, and I would be VERY ANXIOUS about trying to do that!

pbrown
01-31-2016, 12:48 PM
Okay. I'm finally at my wit's end.
I installed the new dash pot, tried to adjust the throttle return springs so there would be significant installed pre-load. Still, the dash pot doesn't let the throttle drop gently back to idle like it's supposed to... it JUST WON'T LET THE THROTTLE DROP BACK TO IDLE AT ALL! :mad:

The only thing I can think of is that the surface on the throttle lever that addresses the end of the dash pot plunger isn't quite perpendicular to the plunger. Could a slight side load on the plunger cause it to bind up? The only way I could see to remedy that would be to bend the tab on the throttle lever, and I would be VERY ANXIOUS about trying to do that!

Post a close-up photo of the linkage at the carb.

MacDee
01-31-2016, 01:43 PM
First shot: Side view overall linkage.
Second shot: Front view looking down at plunger/throttle lever interface.

Luva65wagon
02-01-2016, 12:40 PM
Gary,

Always test the throttle response without the cable first. Make sure the experience is the same this way and with the cable attached to the pedal.

Also, if you apply force to the throttle linkage, can you force it to the correct idle speed?

If you push only on the dashpot, how much further does it travel?

If you disconnect the cable to the pedal, how much further can you pull the cable towards the front of the car. It should offer little resistance for at least another inch.

Really, the dashpot spring should be less than the return spring so they are not fighting each other, and the return spring should have the same effect with and without the cable to the pedal attached.

Process of elimination requires removing some part of the equation and see if the same results exist. The only thing that should ever vary is the speed of decel to idle with and without the dashpot.

MacDee
02-10-2016, 07:46 PM
So...
Last weekend I decided to try again to make the dashpot work. I got an assortment of springs together, fired her up and set off around the block to warm her up.
She didn't make it back. With about 500 feet to go, she lost all drive, just like before.
Another flat bed trip to Long's.... The torque converter failed again.

Randy says torque converters for the little Ford six are getting really hard to find. I've suggested getting it rebuilt by a B&M or a TCI or some such company that focuses on torque converters for high performance applications. Does that make sense? I don't know enough about the inner workings of a torque converter to know if a failed one can be "fixed". The thing isn't exploding, as such, it's just there is just something breaking, I guess, that causes it to instantly stop functioning.

Any advice will be most welcomed. Any line on another torque converter would also be welcomed....

I don't know.... :(

BadBird
02-10-2016, 10:59 PM
That is indeed bad news. I don't understand how another torque convertor could already be gone. You haven't put any miles on this have you.
Sorry I can't give much for advice, but this is really suspicious, weird, troubling. Larry

ew1usnr
02-11-2016, 03:38 AM
That is indeed bad news. I don't understand how another torque convertor could already be gone. You haven't put any miles on this have you. Sorry I can't give much for advice, but this is really suspicious, weird, troubling.

Hello, Gary.

The only input that I can provide is that my Ford-O-Matic torque converter was re-built three years ago and it cost $267. The transmission shop mailed the torque converter out and got it back just a few days later. Part of the $267 was shipping. The transmission guy said that the shipping was expensive because the torque converter was heavy. I have driven the car 13,000 miles since then with no torque converter problems.

Dennis.

Luva65wagon
02-11-2016, 12:19 PM
If it wasn't for bad luck.... as they say. Man!
:doh:

:mad:

I would assume this being the smaller torque converter than Dennis would have with the V8 makes it a hard thing to find. I thought, for some reason, that you had a C4 in this now and used the larger bell-housing and normal C4 TC. If not, then yes you may have to contact someone like B&M or TCI and see what they can offer. That is just a big bummer!

Luva65wagon
02-11-2016, 12:27 PM
Oh - a torque converter is very much like a jet turbine, but as a fluid clutch. When the fins inside go they can really go. I had one fail on my Escape and it took out the transmission too. But that is its job - push fluid and as a reservoir for a lot of fluid. Most of the fluid you add goes into it. There is also a pump in the motor, but the TC, as the name implies, acts as a clutch to transfer torque from the motor into the transmission. It is designed to slip until RPM spinning it exceeds the internal design to start pushing fluid. This design element changes to adjust the stall (when it engages). Overly simple explanation, but the basic idea, anyway.

MacDee
03-28-2016, 10:44 AM
Well, Freddie is back on the road… AGAIN! After some negotiation with my mechanic and his transmission guy, I ended up getting a heavy-duty, higher-stall torque converter from Hughes Performance in Phoenix, AZ. She runs great, drives very nicely, and I now believe the car is totally roadworthy. The newly rebuilt engine is completely sound, the transmission is freshly rebuilt, and it now has a torque converter that doesn’t break every time you sneeze!
That’s the good news.

However…



Before this last breakdown, I had secretly vowed to myself that if this car ever stranded me again, I was going to sell it. Indeed, when it broke down again, the only way I could avoid having a personal breakdown was to remind myself that I was going to sell it. I’ve had six years of constant, pervasive, anxiety over this car. I kept hoping, and kept telling myself, that the “fun” was about to begin. But the fun never came. The disappointment just continued….



Now that the drivetrain is sound, it probably will be fun again... for someone. But for me, it is too little, too late.


She still needs attention in other areas:
The suspension is dilapidated.
The door seals are shot.
The exhaust system is really just “temporary” and needs a well-made professional system.
I really believe it needs a brake proportioning valve; the front disc brakes don’t seem to be very effective.
Frankly, I’m burned out. I don’t have the will to put a wrench to it anymore.



It is a very unique car. It’s as cute as a can be, and has a really cool engine with a rare Classic Inlines aluminum head. It is a great STARTING POINT for someone who wants a truly remarkable Falcon! I hope someone can have some fun with her; it’s just not going to be me. I’m done with it.


Freddie is for sale.

SmithKid
03-28-2016, 10:47 AM
Sad! Sad! Sad!

Luva65wagon
03-28-2016, 10:59 AM
My thoughts exactly, but I fully understand burnout. Sort of where I am with the wagon.

:(

What-if we as a club were to intervene and offer you a one-last-chance to save Freddie event? I know even that would mean spending money on, but I feel worth proposing. Not only would you be selling Freddie, but we might be loosing Gary. That is worth saving.

If you opt to move forward towards selling, you may want to take the spot at the Monroe swap meet next to our booth. Lots of traffic and potential buyers.

Again.... :(

Luva65wagon
03-28-2016, 12:34 PM
Also, refresh my memory, Gary - did we do a drum/disc master cylinder on Freddie? In other words, dissimilar bowls.

I remember your initial experience was less than stellar and never heard much afterward, probably due to the other disasters, but when I did mine I left the original drum/drum M/C and my brakes have been phenomenal.

May be that the combo of drum/disc sizing is such that any internal diffs between the two M/C types isn't ideal towards one. I know they like larger bowls for the heat discs can generate, but how much fluid leaves the calipers and floats/transfers to the bowl to suck that heat out?

I do have a new Prop-value and residual values I had donated to me from a coworker, but I think it might be easier to swap the M/C. Or leave it for the new owner, whichever occurs first.

MacDee
03-28-2016, 03:55 PM
Also, refresh my memory, Gary - did we do a drum/disc master cylinder on Freddie? In other words, dissimilar bowls
Yeah, we put in Drum/Disc MC. The bowls are dissimilar.
I noticed on one long descent with a stop sign at the bottom that the brakes faded to almost nothing. Then, one of the things that Randy did recently was a brake job on the rear because the shoes were badly worn. The rear brakes were almost new when we did the disc swap, and it doesn't have all that many miles on it since. I suspect the rears have been doing ALL the work!

MacDee
03-28-2016, 03:58 PM
Not only would you be selling Freddie, but we might be loosing Gary.
I would hope, and if sold to a local person, would expect, that you might lose a Gary, but Freddie would still be in the club!

Luva65wagon
03-29-2016, 10:00 AM
Yeah, we put in Drum/Disc MC. The bowls are dissimilar.
I noticed on one long descent with a stop sign at the bottom that the brakes faded to almost nothing. Then, one of the things that Randy did recently was a brake job on the rear because the shoes were badly worn. The rear brakes were almost new when we did the disc swap, and it doesn't have all that many miles on it since. I suspect the rears have been doing ALL the work!

That's sort of what I recall when we tested that first day. With the drum/drum M/C I've had no issues whatsoever.

I'm not sure whether the bore sizing differs or just the bowl sizes between these two. I still have 9" rear brakes too. Though a proportioning valve might help redistribute pressures correctly, there is still the potential that the M/C is bore-sized to be used with a booster, or maybe not. I have a drum/drum M/C for no brake booster (67 Mustang) and operates the disc brakes with no OMG! feeling at all.

Luva65wagon
03-29-2016, 10:06 AM
I would hope, and if sold to a local person, would expect, that you might lose a Gary, but Freddie would still be in the club!

Still wouldn't be the same. I doubt anyone here places the value of the car over the person driving the car. But we/I understand.

:(

MacDee
03-29-2016, 11:32 AM
If you opt to move forward towards selling, you may want to take the spot at the Monroe swap meet next to our booth. Lots of traffic and potential buyers.

Luck is holding true...
We are going to be in Michigan that weekend visiting our son's fiance's family.