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Well, gee.
I had the front end re-built this past August, including new strut rod bushings.
I just noticed that those new strut rod bushings are all squished in and disintegrated.
(Right)
Attachment 4415
(Left)
Attachment 4416
What would have caused this? Were they over-tightened or under tightened?
:confused:
I'm not sure what the other cupped washer looks like but the illustration that came with mine have them cupping outward, not inward although you wouldn't think so.
And there should be a metal tube between the two washers that the strut goes through. It prevents the bushings from being compressed too much. One other option is poly bushings. I've heard a lot of complaints about how bad the rubber parts are from some importers these days.
http://www.tffn.net/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=31220
Hello, Kenny.
Thanks for the photo. I stuck my camera underneath and just took this photo of the left bushing looking from underneath. The front bushing is squished and the bushing behind it is split.
Attachment 4417
I can't understand how that would happen. The parts came from FalconParts.com and appeared to be new.
I checked at the local parts store and replacement bushings would cost $32. I just ordered a set of "poly graphite" bushings on-line from Performance Suspension Technology (PST) at http://www.p-s-t.com/ for $28, shipping included. I'll see how they hold up.
Attachment 4418
“Zero-deflection, ultimate handling Graphite impregnated - no squeaks!” “One of the primary problem areas in classic musclecar suspensions is the use of rubber bushings. They were cheap to manufacture for mass production and provided isolation from road noise and vibration, but rubber has a significant tradeoff – its relatively soft durometer (hardness) allows for significant deflection of the chassis components under load. The rubber bushings twist and deform as the suspension components rotate, causing premature wear and unpredictable handling. Rubber eventually dry rots when exposed to the elements and degrades in the presence of grease and oil. PST perfected polyurethane with the introduction of POLYGRAPHITE® - a special formula incorporating a low-friction graphite lubricant into the actual bushing material. With POLYGRAPHITE®, you get the near-zero deflection performance of polyurethane with a self-lubricating bushing. As an added benefit, POLYGRAPHITE® is impervious to grease, oil, weather, and other natural elements and will never dry rot.”
Dennis, when I saw the foto of your bushings, I got an idea why yours are cut and disintegrating (but this is purely speculation, not knowledge). I had the impression that the washers may be the culprit due to the (comparatively) sharp edge of the washer against the bushing. On top of that, I thought my washers were installed as yours are. I was wrong, and my washers are installed as Kenny pictured. Mine have been installed for a couple of years, but I'm sure I don't have near the mileage on mine as you. I bet with the new bushings you ordered and installing the washers as Kenny suggests, your problem will be gone. Here is mine:
Kenny, the diagram you posted shows the front cup washer installed as Dennis' was (opposite of Gene;s), the cup towards the rubber bush. The rear washer is installed cup away...
I don't know what is correct but you guys need to figure it out before I do mine in the spring:)
Here is a link to the diagram Kenny uploaded:
http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums...6&d=1395203618
http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums...=strut+bushing
Dennis as smashed as those are did you have the steel sleeve inside the bushings? I think the washer may have some effect on it but if that sleeve is not there you will definitely get what I see in the pics.
I forgot about that previous post. I'll have to crawl under the car and see what I did but I'm guessing I went by the diagram on the instruction sheet. And I should inspect the bushings too. I haven't since I installed them.
Darn it! I think that you are right, Steve. (I really like this club.)Quote:
Originally Posted by doghows
The metal sleeve spacers must have been left out.
The bushings kit that I had ordered from FalconParts.com came with the spacers.
Attachment 4420
The poly-graphite bushings that I ordered this evening evidently will come with a new set of metal spacer sleeves. This was the photograph they used to illustrate the bushings:
Attachment 4421
In the link to the previous discussion on bushings Pat said "Get new rubber bushings for this location. Don't use poly on stock strut rods." Why is that?
The bushing diagram is kind of odd in that it shows that the washer on the front of the car has the dish facing inward, while the washer on the back has the washer facing outward. I wonder why that is?
I don't have those parts anymore since I have the mustang ll suspension but I thought I remembered the washers with the concave side against the rubber bushings. I checked my old pictures before I took the car apart and I checked the "1964 Falcon/Comet" book I have and that is the way they also show them. I think the nuts were just tightened too much, but pretty hard to be sure if that's the cause. Soooo it looks to me like you had the washers on the right way. Larry
Dennis, the poly bushings are too firm for the stock arms and there have been several cases of the arm breaking due to lack of movement. Those arms have to move up and down with your suspension so for your car I would stick with rubber. I'm looking in to the adjustable ones just for better alignment issues, but my car has been lowered so it causes more issues when it comes to alignment.
I think there is a good web site with info on the ploy vs rubber I think it is car daze.com. Check that out.
Hello, Steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by doghows
You convinced me. I ordered another original-type 1962-1963 strut rod bushing kit C2DZ-3A187-A from FalconParts.com.
Attachment 4422
Thanks, Dennis.
Glad the information helped with your decision. Just make sure to use the sleeves this time lol! Besides we need you to keep your car on the road, especially this time of year when we can't get ours out too much. We need your trips to keep us going through the winter. :shift:
Having installed about 6 sets of these in 3 years they are not all created equal. I've seen 3 different types so far and some have the sleeves and some do not. But the sleeves are there, when included, to stop you from crushing the bushings. I noted elsewhere that NOS rubber parts don't seem to survive being put into service. Not sure if these were, but may have been old stock. They seem to be crumbling as well.
As Steve said these are supposed to move up and down. The washers are curved outward to allow the bushing this movement. If you either overtighten the nuts (no sleeve) or use too stiff a bushing (poly) the control arms can't easily raise and lower.
I know Jay Baker had two sets of the adjustable control arms for sale at our past 3 swap meet appearances. They were not (are not) cheap. For a driver, probably not needed. He proposed bringing them to the mini-regional, but not sure if he did or not.
Also, the adjustment of strut rods are very elusive. I have never found anything to indicate where those nuts should be placed. I can only guess that these are are adjusted if wheel caster can't be adjusted correctly using shims on the upper control arm. I would think that with the car weight on the front end, these should be adjusted neutral. You can effectively pull the lower control arm fore and aft this way - though I can't imagine wanting to do so very much. It is a fixed length and as the control arms go up and down it has to affect caster some. Some cars, I've seen, don't have the rear-ward nuts and have a positive stop on the back side. These could never be used as an adjustable part.
I telephoned PST this past Monday morning and canceled the order for the poly-graphite bushing order. They were nice about it and didn't argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luva65wagon
Operating on the assumption that the squished bushings had indicated that the steel spacer sleeves had not been installed, I ordered another OEM-style strut bushing kit from FalconParts.com this past Sunday. That order was delivered yesterday and after I got home from work I took the car back to the mechanic who had rebuilt the front end this past August. I explained that the bushings had disintegrated and that the metal spacers might not have been installed. He looked surprised but didn't argue and said that he would take a look at them. I also showed him the diagram that Kenny had posted where it shows the rear washer with the dish facing outward and the front washer facing inward. I asked him to re-check the alignment and to also replace the ruptured dust boot on the left inner tie rod end.
Ruptured tie rod end dust boot
Attachment 4432
They called me this afternoon and said that the car was ready. The mechanic showed me the squished bushings and said that the spacers had been installed, and that it had been the composition of the rubber bushings that had been at fault.
Crumbled strut rod bushings
Attachment 4433
I explained that the new set of bushings had come from the same company where I had bought the first set from. The mechanic said that the new set of bushings was different. He said that the new bushings had been made from polyurethane. I said that I had been told not to use polyurethane bushings because they were too stiff. He said that the poly bushings came in different degrees of stiffness and what I had was fine and that I would not notice any difference. He said that maybe FalconParts had problems with the supplier of the rubber parts and had switched to a new supplier with the polyurethane parts. I had handled the new poly bushings and rubbed them with silicone grease and it had never crossed my mind that they were not black rubber. The new bushings had not felt any harder than the previous rubber bushings. The mechanic also said that he had replaced the one torn tie rod end dust boot and that all the other boots were good.
New polyurethane left strut rod bushing
Attachment 4434
New polyurethane left inner tie rod bushing dust boot
Attachment 4435
And the mechanic wrote the work off as a return visit on the previous front end rebuild and alignment and said that there would be ... No Charge! :)
I think that I will mail the disintegrated rubber bushing back to FalconParts, though, and ask for my $32 back.
I had the mechanic install the washers as shown in Kenny's drawing. That configuration seems correct because as the strut rod moves up and down at the lower control arm, the radius point of the arc of motion would be at the outer washer. The bushing would not tilt much there and the inward facing dish of the washer would serve to center the bushing. The trailing washer is where the arc of movement would occur and the bushing flexes against the convex curved front surface of the washer with its dished surface facing the rear. At least that is my theory.
The weather is ideal, gas is cheap, and my Falcon is back on the road. Yea!
Thanks for the conclusion to the story.
Your reasoning makes sense and I am going to go the same route.
The labor for mine will also be "no charge". In fact the guy that will be doing the work is sitting at my keyboard right now:banana:
Hello, Jeff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff W
Does the big nut on the forward end of the strut rod require a 1-3/16" or a 1-1/4" socket?
Thanks, Dennis.
Hi Dennis, my 6 cylinder rig (I don't think that makes a difference) is neither. It is 1-1/16".Quote:
Originally Posted by ew1usnr
jw
Thanks, Jeff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff W
I bought a 13-piece deep socket set on a half-price sale at Harbor Freight and went to work on my car today. You were correct, the nuts took a 1-1/16" socket.
The mechanic who put on the second set of bushing thought that they were polyurethane. I e-mailed Falcon Parts asking about that and they replied: “The bushings all came from the same supplier, production run and made of the same material."
Well, those bushings collapsed also after only 5,200 miles. I ordered another set of rubber strut rod bushings from Performance Suspension Technologies (PST) for $25. The bushings came as a complete set with washers, spacers, and nuts and were marked “Product of Argentina”.
I thought that "Made in Argentina" was interesting. After Ford USA finished making the 1963 Falcon they shipped the dies to Ford of Argentina where they continued making Falcons up until 1991! Falcons are still popular down there.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fa...entina%29#1982
Anyway, the installation went relatively easy. I lubricated the bushings with silicone grease and placed the front and rear washers with their convex sides facing towards the bushings like )=(. This will let the bushing roll across the washer surface as the strut rod is pushed up and down and create minimal resistance. Cupping the bushings with the concave side like (=) would squish the bushings and cause resistance as the control arm goes up and down. I saw no advantage to that. The strut rod should provide resistance to forward and back motion, not up and down.
Attachment 4818
I did run into one surprise. My left and right strut rods are not the same.
The left strut rod weighed 3.25 lbs and the turn stop part of the strut rod (the end sticking up on the left end in the photo) was part of the strut rod.
Attachment 4819
The right strut rod weighs 2.75 lbs and has a turn stop that is shaped different and is a separate piece. The base of the separate piece is sandwiched between the strut rod and the control arm. The bolts were not tightened yet when the picture was taken.
Attachment 4820
I am hoping that this new set of Argentinian rubber bushings will last for the next 100,000 miles.
Here are the Andrews Sisters singing "The South American Way":https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3yQL-cfWts
Dennis, You may have a V8 and a 6'r strut rod. The V8 version was the solid one with the bent end and the 6'r had the removable stop. The spindles are different L6 versus V8 and you may find your turning radius hampered in one direction (I'd guess right turns), whichever stops against the one with the strut with removable bit.
Not knowing this detail when I built my Ranchero I had 6'r struts and V8 spindles and I could barely make the turn into any parking spot. I pulled the stop-brackets off for a quick fix, but got a V8 set from Steve and will eventually swap them in.. real soon now.
Hello, Roger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luva65wagon
I had never noticed a problem, but now you have made me curious. I will go into a big grocery store parking lot and make a turn all the way to the right and then all the way to the left and see if I can notice a difference in the turning radius and/or steering wheel position.
There is heavy rain forecast for the next couple of days, so I will not get to try this until Thursday or Friday. :rain:
I would like to know the story of when, why, and how that strut rod was changed. :confused:
Falcon Parts says: "1963 STRUT ROD SKU: C3DZ-3468-A This part is the correct strut rod for all models of the 1963 Ford Falcon & Mercury Comet. Price: $58.95"
Attachment 4821
See: https://www.falconparts.com/ford-fal...OD-18p5331.htm
That's the V8 style. It would probably work on a 6'r spindle if nothing rubbed going in circles.
Happy 4th...
Was searching for info about strut rod bushings failing and ran across this thread.
I am finishing up a 61 Futura with a V8 conversion and having trouble with premature failure of the strut rod bushings. The entire front suspension has been updated with the V8 Falcon parts... including the Strut Rods & Bushings.
I have had 2 sets of bushings fail in about 2000 miles, Both sets were from Falcon Parts (1962-1963 STRUT ROD BUSHINGS, C2DZ-3A187-A). Both sets were installed properly and checked by a reputable alignment shop that is very familiar with our older cars. And I've replaced the bushings from other manufacturers on other older Fords and they have lasted for years.
I have had good luck with stuff from Falcon Parts but I noticed in this thread that others have apparently had similar problems with these specific bushings from them... so I am now assuming the problem I'm having is associated with the sub quality parts. As a side note, I did contact them and they stood behind there bushings... it was apparently "my fault" for improper installation.
So, I would much appreciate some feedback on some questions...
1. Is it likely my assumptions are correct about the 2 sets of bushings from Falcon Parts being poor quality?
2. Any recommendations from members that have had a more favorable experience with other "rubber" OEM or aftermarket bushings for this application?
3. Any thoughts on the Heim Joint style strut rods that eliminate the bushings? Pros & Cons? Harsher ride?
Any feedback is appreciated...
Thx - Fred
Fred,
Tough one. Rubber does fail, and these parts do see a lot of force. I have a hard time with FP taking a hard stand on quality. There is not a lot of wrong you can do installing these, though it's not impossible either. That said, the mix-match of parts you get for strut rods bushing is all over the place. I did them on Don's car (the 61 "Grandad's car) and had to machine the bushings to make them work. The fact they machined at all gave me reason to pause and wonder.... "how long will these last?"
The purpose of the strut is to hold the lower control arm in place as it moves up and down with the rest of the front end. These stresses are significant. I've seen these mechanical pivot-style struts and I can't see how they would make the ride more or less harsh. The factory used rubber because it was cheap, but I see this similarly to the spring perches that are now made to pivot on bearings instead of rubber. The ride is much improved in my opinion. Granted, when rubber fails you may still have cushion you will lack when you have hard surfaces and things fail, but that's just an indication that it is time to change the part rather than living with it a while longer because the failure was "quieter."
I know a member, Jay, who's had a set of these mechanical struts for a while he's been wanting to sell. I had them for a while (post swap meet haul for club), but I think he still has a set. They were not cheap items new and I don't know what he wants for them, but would be happy to contact him for you. He's not active on this site and lives up the other side of Burlington as I recall. If interested, let me know and I can get you in-touch with him.
Roger -
Thx... In hindsight I could have been less critical of Falcon Parts and more to the point. They sell the stuff, not make it... but should stand behind what they sell. I was more curious if other members had experience, bad or good, with the Strut Rod bushings they sell.
I am more interested in what other members have had success with. Any feedback including manufacturer appreciated... keeping in mind I am using '63 adjustable Strut Rods (with later 62-65 LCAs) which, as you're aware, are different than original '61. Anyone have any experience with the MOOG K8122 sold for the 64-65 Falcon?
I am considering swapping to the mechanical strut rod and actually have a set that I bought some time ago from PTP Engineering. I bought the DIY Kit instead of the complete strut rod. It requires cutting the LCA end off the stock strut rod and having it machined & treaded to use the Kit... my thought was to save some money. Not sure it does in the end. Nice stuff but wanted to be sure that was what I wanted to do before proceeding.
http://www.pacificthunderperformance...ir-sr-diy-1001
Do you know if Jay actually used/tried the ones he was selling? May not be a bad idea to put me in touch with him in either case.
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by ew1usnr
Dennis - Hello...
I had a similar experience with bushings from Falcon Parts.
Would be interested in your experience with the set you bought from PST.
Thx - Fred
Hello, Fred.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlescfp
I bought two sets of strut rod bushings from Falcon Parts & they both failed at about 1500 miles.
A set of "Made in Argentina" bushings failed at about 550 miles.
Then I bought a fourth set of bushings that Falcon Parts said had come from a new supplier. Those bushings have held up for over 5000 miles and still look good (knock on wood).
Thanks, Dennis.
First set:
From Falcon Parts.com: “SKU: C2DZ-3A187-A,1962-1963 Strut Rod Bushings. This part is the Strut Rod Bushing Set designed to fit all models of the 1962-1963 Ford Falcon & Mercury Comet. This set includes 4 rubber bushings, 4 steel washers, 2 steel sleeves and the 4 nuts.” The price was $32.95. They were installed on 8/30/14 at odometer = 23791.
The bushings disintegrated and were replaced on 12/18/14 at odometer = 25166 (1375 miles). Note: After the first set of bushings failed, I changed the position of the top and bottom washers to this postion: ) ( where both concave surfaces face away from the bushings.
Attachment 5761
Attachment 5762
Attachment 5763
Attachment 5764
Second set:
I ordered another rubber strut rod bushing kit from FalconParts.com and installed them on 12/18/14 at odometer = 25166.
The bushings disintegrated and were replaced on 4/23/15, odometer = 26705 (1539 miles).
Third set:
I bought a set of rubber strut rod bushing set from Performance Suspension Technologies (PST) that were marked “Product of Argentina”.
The Argentinian bushings were installed 4/23/15 at odometer = 26705 and had disintegrated by 6/04/15 at odometer = 27272 (567 miles).
Fourth set:
I ordered a set of four bushings C2DZ-3A187-A from Falcon Parts. The description said: “We are using a different supplier then our normal so the bushings we have right now DO NOT have the washers or nuts. We do hope to get our normal stock back.” The price was $32.95. These were installed on 6/13/15 at odometer = 27272.
Current odometer = 32553 (5281 miles) and the bushings still look good!!!
If the present bushings fail, I may replace them with these:
High performance strut rod bushings: http://www.jegs.com/i/Global-West/45...oductId=760572
Fits 1962 – 1965 Ford Falcon. “If adjustable strut rods are not in your budget, high-density rubber strut rod bushings would be your best alternative. The rubber bushings are stiffer than the factory type and have just enough forgiveness to allow the suspension to move without overstressing the strut rod. These bushings are recommended if the car is used as a daily driver and is not raced.” “High durometer bushings will control lower control arm location with limited deflection and still allow pivot over standard factory durometer. Provides better alignment, cornering, and braking control. Easy installation. No modifications needed. Too high of a durometer bushing in this location can cause strut rod failure due to too much resistance in the direction of pivot. That is why there is rubber in this location over other high density plastics.”
Dennis -
Thx for the quick, informative and helpful response.
You must have gotten lucky with the "different supplier" from Falcon Parts, as I bought my second set after that and they were the same as the first.
If I don't install the Mechanical Strut Rods that eliminate the bushing I will probably consider the bushings from Global West that you referred to. I looked at the link... they look good and seem to be made more like some of the MOOG bushings that I have seen with a built in shoulder/spacer.
Thx again... you saved me from buying the bushings form PST.
Hello, Fred.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlescfp
Here is a video of the SRB-5 bushings. They say these are for racing and the SRB-4 is for street cars. I think that the SRB-4 bushings are made with softer rubber.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cShlNItp5Qc
The dimensions of these are different (longer) than stock and you may have to re-adjust your alignment after you replace the stock bushings with the SRB-4 bushings.
Hey all. Good info. I only know that I had a set of MOOG bushing from a pile of parts I bought off of a local guy who was selling off a bunch of 65 wagon parts on Craigslist. I bought it all. They, I hope, are still intact, but now you got me wondering. I guess I will be sticking my head under there this Friday to see if they are still there.
I have already replaced the upper and lower control arms from that same batch of parts. For what ever reason, the rubber in those disintegrated. I suspected from dry-rot, but I could make not heads or tails of why they'd have failed any faster uninstalled than they would have installed.
Hi all -
Thought it was worth sharing that I again replaced my strut rod bushing on my 61 Futura last July. This time with ACP P/N FC-ES017 (note... I am running later V8 steering/suspension) and after a year and about 3500 miles they still look good. No obvious slitting or cracking as I quickly previously experienced with another brand.
My experience with ACP has been limited to upgrading the suspension & steering of my 61 Futura, but been very satisfied.
Fred
I used Duralast fa938 for my strut rod bushings.
It crossed over from moog k8122..
There was rumor these don't fit the round body falcons..
They fit my early 63 just fine..
I'll let you know how they hold up.