Little @ time

**Luva65wagon** · February 13th, 2012, 04:06 PM

No sweat. My last post is essentially saying that the body of the distributor keys the location of the cap, which then has the wires going to the plugs.

Firing order, which needs to know rotation of the rotor (clockwise and 1,5,3,6,2,4 in this case), has to be followed for these all to go to the right holes.

Then you have to make sure the crank is at top dead center on the compression stroke of cylinder #1 - AKA zero on the timing scale on the balancer.
Note: The balancer will read zero at top dead center on the exhaust stroke too. This would be 180 degrees out of phase if you point the rotor to #1 on the cap at this point.
Figuring out which stroke you are on can be a little hard to determine, since all you have with the motor together is compression pulses to figure out which stroke you are on. Pull the #1 plug and rotate the motor and you will feel the compression pulses as the piston comes up. It pushes air in both the compression and the exhaust stroke, but on the compression stroke both valves are closed and you should feel considerably more force. I use my thumb and cover the hole where the spark plug goes and have someone bump the starter while I watch the pointer on the balancer.

When you are pretty sure to be at TDC compression on #1, balancer reading zero, look at the rotor under the cap, relative to the cap. Is it pointing to about where the #1 wire connects? If not, then you need to pull the distributor out of the motor and keeping the body of the distributor in the same orientation, rotate the rotor and shaft until the rotor just about points where it needs to be. It will want to rotate a little more as it engages the cam gear, so you may need to move it one tooth one direction or the other before you seat it.

But that's how that works.

**doghows** · February 13th, 2012, 04:41 PM

I think we need to invest in a transporter machine so we can just zip you around when people need help.
I have to say for typing all that out it still made sense. (sort of kind of)

**Guy Monjure** · February 14th, 2012, 06:27 AM

Thanks for your time Roger.

When I find my way a little further I will yet you know. I have restored a few cars over the years but this is my first engine rebuild.

This will all make it sweeter when I do get to drive it,
Guy

**Guy Monjure** · February 14th, 2012, 01:35 PM

I am learning alot and that is one of the things I got into the hobby for. After getting frustrated the other day I realized that frustration was not one of the reasons I built the shop. I am going to commit a little less time to this as we go to help keep my prospective.

Pulled the ALT connector at the regulator. Completed the 5 step test you posted for me Roger and it is still just rotating the engine and not starting. I am going after the coil and the Pertronix unit next.

Thanks to all,
Guy

**Luva65wagon** · February 14th, 2012, 03:36 PM

... but it doesn't always work out that way. When you build a car from scratch like I just did - I mean really, almost completely from scratch - you expect to run into things. A few mods can add to frustration, but a lot of mods can be almost overwhelming. I'm happy to say a cool head prevails as you work through issues. So breathe, relax and know that it will be resolved. It can always be reduced to its most basic (like the previous post I offered) and that then really only leaves a few things.

Of course the assumption can be made that the motor was assembled correctly and you have compression, which is one of the 4 essential things you need. Air, compression, fuel, spark. And all happening at the right time.

So if we go through these one at a time, it's pretty simple testing:

1) you are breathing, so there must be air. It is tied to compression, so if you have...
2) compression, then you probably don't have mechanical reasons for it not running.
3) Fuel - if you pump the gas pedal and see fuel being pumped into the throat of the carb, you have fuel. Too much fuel in a non-starting motor can cause a too-rich condition and wet the plugs so bad that it won't run, so pull the plugs and check for...
4) spark and make sure you have that.

If all these are there, then it is either a mis-oriented distributor rotor/shaft, bad coil, or bad Pertronix. If you wired it in the most simple way I mentioned (bypassing every other wire and going direct to the battery), then you will find the dodgy bit in short order.

Barring that, I'm sure a round-trip ticket from Seattle to Phoenix isn't too expensive.

**falcon cobra** · February 14th, 2012, 04:34 PM

Hey guy, pull a spark plug and hook the wire back on it and turn key and see if there is a spark that will let you know if the ignition is working..jh

**Guy Monjure** · February 14th, 2012, 06:04 PM

FC,

I pulled number 1 and the spare coming to engine ground was just a thin white line. Not the thick blue spare you would explect.

Roger,
I have the original mustard top coil and I hate to give it up but will if it comes to it. And the engine is turning, pistons moving, got compression, got fuel to the carb. Did the below test if the ALT pigtag unplugged from the REG.

I performed a test I found on that Pertronix site you posted to me Roger.

Ran jumper from neg side of the coil to engine ground. Pos from volt meter to pos side of the coil. Neg from volt meter to an engine ground. Put in RUN and read voltage at pos side of the coil. I got 4.85V. Put in OFF, disconnect all the wires from the coil. Read the resistance. I got 1.5ohms. So 4.85V / 1.5ohm = 3.2A. According to the Pertronix documentation a 6 cyclinder engine should not exceed 4A.

I just followed the test to see if I meet the requirment for total amperage.

I'll be working the next few days so if I don't respond for a while thats why.
Thank you all for your help,
Guy

**Guy Monjure** · February 18th, 2012, 03:32 PM

I have still not figured this thing out.

I had no spark so I bought a new coil and installed it. The engine turns over beautifully, I can see the fuel through the carb, I can see the pistons going up and down, the oil flowing when I take the valve cover off, I can feel the compression with my thumb, but I have no fire. I confirmed I'm at TDC on combustion stroke pointed to #1. I went through the Pertronix paperwork and it does not tell you how to test if its good are not.

Guy

**SmithKid** · February 18th, 2012, 05:00 PM

Guy, I just installed a Pertronix II unit in my Ranchero and it works perfectly, but I know of at least one other person that had trouble with his. As the unit is fully sel-contained, I don't know if there is a need to trouble-shoot it. As I recall, you've checked the connections to the unit, so I'd recommend re-installing the points to prove the rest of the setup. If this makes lot's of joy around you, then it's definitely time to get on the horn to Pertronix for a replacement unit.

Or another direction would be to shoot an email to their customer support for guidance.

**Guy Monjure** · February 18th, 2012, 05:29 PM

I found all the old hardware I took out of the distributor today. I thought about installing it back, but now that you've put it that way I'll do it next.

Thanks,
Guy

**Luva65wagon** · February 20th, 2012, 07:26 PM

Guy,

I carry a set of points and condenser and the wire from the dist to the coil so I can swap out the Pertronix on the side of the road if I ever need to. I can't just run to the parts house and get one of those if they fail. And I have had 3 fail. The good thing is that Pertronix - so far - has replaced them all. One was almost 3 years old.

I can't recall if this is a new and previously running install, or a brand new install, but either way, going back to points and condenser would certainly be wise. Sure is starting to sound like that is the cause.

**redfalken** · February 20th, 2012, 07:52 PM

I lost a Pertronix unit once pretty quick when I shorted a wire under the dash. What's that they say about car projects? Step one: disconnect battery!

The original Pertronix had an issue where it would burn up if you left the key in the run position too long without the engine running. I think Pertronix II may have taken care of that.

When I ran the Pertronix I always had the points in my trunk just in case. I feel pretty good about my Duraspark/MSD setup but it does take a little away from the original look.

**Luva65wagon** · February 20th, 2012, 08:38 PM

I run the Duraspark II on 3 vehicles at the moment, one came that way, one is still all DSII parts (in the Flarecheromobile) and my pickup has a DSII dizzy and the GM ignition module. The wagon is Pertronix. Because I'm trying to keep the wagon sort'a kinda stockish (the headers are certainly not) I like the Pertronix option. But it's not easy to swap out a DSII system back to points, like you can Pertronix. Keep a spare distributor in the trunk?

But I had my own share of "WHY WON'T THIS WORK!!!"

yesterday on the 'chero trying to swap in the GM module (which I like for its simplicity and being cheap to replace), but I can't get it to work on the thing. Spent all day yesterday. Went back to the DSII module. Skwew it.

**Guy Monjure** · February 21st, 2012, 06:51 AM

Thanks to everyone for your help.

I am planning to take the modual out today and install the points and condensor.

Can anyone tell me how much resistance is in the resistance wire?

If she does not start with the points where can I get a new resistance wire from?

You guys got a big storm coming,
Guy

**Guy Monjure** · February 22nd, 2012, 12:36 PM

OK, I installed new points and condensor. Removed the Pertronix module and disconnected the 12V from the long stud of the ignition switch that feeds it.

Engine is rotating and is now backfiring with a puff of vapor coming from the carb. The engine has never backfired before I took the Pertronix out.

I double (or by now tripple) checked #1 cylinder is on the combustion stroke at TDC. I turned the distributor CCW and CW but engine is still backfiring. I am happy about something having changed, but still have not got it started.

Guy