Saving Granddad's Falcon

[SmithKid]

WOW! I agree! What a difference! Great tip.... maybe I'll feel reeeeeel energetic one of these days and give my back window a try. Maybe after I get a coupla winter-time projects done first.

[dhbfaster]

Well, finished work at about 7:30, and got to the falcon at around 8 to get onto the glass...had so much fun I couldn't stop until I was done. I must say, at this moment in time, I just might have the nicest exterior surfaces of original windows on any 1961 fordor falcon. (Of course, now that the outside is so nice, I can see the inside needs a little work...but that will have to wait.)
Pics with a cell phone in the garage at night aren't that great, but...here they are anyway:

i like this one...it looks like those side windows are open doesn't it? They're closed.
IMG_5370.jpg
Here you can see some reflection
IMG_5372.jpg
And, it was hard to get a descent pic of the other side, but here it is.
IMG_5376.jpg
These night time garage pics don't do it justice. I'll take some more after I finish touching up the inside of the trunk with the jack.
At this rate, knock on wood, I might actually get her in a show this summer.

By the way, who is the treasurer? On my thread it say's I'm a Senior forum member but it doesn't say I'm a paying member. Do I owe some local club dues?

Gene, it's definitely a back and a leg workout. For a desk job guy like me anyway. Let's find a time you can bring yours over in a month or so and I'll do it for you. Meanwhile, maybe you can help me figure out some problems I'm having with the back doors...still can't get the one handle to go on, and on the other side, the window won't go down because the locks rods are somehow out of place.

[Luva65wagon]

By the way, who is the treasurer? On my thread it say's I'm a Senior forum member but it doesn't say I'm a paying member. Do I owe some local club dues?

We've been meaning to have a talk to you about that!

Actually, there is (was) a means to pay local club dues on the forum, but it is Jeff Watson who is the treasurer. Jeff W is his forum handle. If you PM him and start to type Jeff... it will populate. I'll look for where it is, as well, on this new forum design.

EDIT: Go to Forum Actions - Edit Profile - Paid Subscriptions on the left-side set of selections.

[Jeff W]

Roger is correct again!

You can renew you membership (it is due annually) via that link and use pay pal. We also accept a paper check sent to the address shown on the application form. Also cash is good at meetings.

You will get an email from the forum site when it is time to renew. We do t have any other follow up, just the single email and hope people self-check membership status using the site tool.

[dhbfaster]

Ok, found the place to pay the dues! My wife is in charge of PayPal and already gone for the holidays ... but I asked Siri to remind me next week.

[dhbfaster]

I finally got an afternoon to work on the falcon!
I’m trying to finish off the trunk. I’m stuck on two points:

Wiring- Can anyone give me a picture of How the wiring runs and clips between the tail lights? I have the original wire harness and clips, but for some reason it’s not obvious where they were clipped on before.

Jack- I got a nice restored jack a while back. Does anyone have a picture of exactly where the jack mounts under the spare tire in the trunk?

[dhbfaster]

Well, I couldn’t get the hoses to the fram fuel filter I had, so I put on a new Delco filter with new hose. Ran great, including a trip around the block. So, I decided to drive it to work today. About the time I got to highway 99 it was acting fuel starved. My gage was close to the lower dot (I can’t remember if the lower dot means 1/4 tank or empty...but I was able to get into a gas station and I put 5 gallons in. It started fine...then same problem and it started to get worse...I got turned around and headed for home and barely got it off the main drag. I didn’t find anything loose or obviously wrong. Roger, I tried to call you but I imagine you didn’t recognize my number since it’s been a while.
I did change the oil last weekend...all that still looks good. The only thing changes other than that was the fuel filter. I did double check and the directional arrow was going the correct direction.
So..I ended up calling AAA to get me home. Those guys were great.
I have to say, all of this still beat working. I still want the check so I’m back at work now (obviously working hard). If anyone has any other ideas of what to check let me know. It doesn’t really make sense that this a problem with the fuel filter other than it’s the only thing I know I changed.

[Luva65wagon]

Don and I chatted today and he's going to look at a few things, like points and voltages. Seems to be squirting fuel via accelerator pump, and the fuel pump is filling up a cup fairly quickly. So hopefully he finds it - otherwise I might visit... masked up.

[dhbfaster]

Update: I felt I needed to get a better handle on how good the spark is, because it seemed kind of weak. So, i bought one of these spark testers:
https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-a...ster/10257_0_0

This thing worked great. I found the spark weak and in some cases almost non-existent and intermittent.
So, most of the ignition stuff was new as of three years ago except for the coil. I took it off and inside the main contact point where the cable hooks it to the distributor- it was awful...this might have been the original coil and one of the only parts I didn’t replace. So, I set out to buy a coil, condenser and set of points. So, which coil to buy...long story short, I ended up giving a nod to my late father in law and bought an MSD coil. Bought everything from Advanced auto parts...but the points have to be delivered. (I plan to convert to Pertronix,but I wanted to confirm what the problem was first and figured I should have an extra set anyway.) I was able to pick up the coil and condenser. I got home, took out the new coil and read the directions...and what? I need to add a ballast resistor. What a pain! But I resolved myself to that and will order that tomorrow. So, what the heck, I replaced the condenser and put the old coil back on...which is when I noticed how bad the contact was. Worked on that a bit...
Engine started right up. That’s the good news...

The bad news..Now every time I try to start the engine, the first time the starter just spins...it doesn’t engage until i turn the key off at which time it seems to bang on the flywheel and stop. Then I try again and it works perfectly and starts right up. After a rest...this scenario repeat two more times! Why this pattern?

So, I looked in the shop manual...and it says, “the drive engagement holding coil contacts have failed.”
Would this be inside the starter?
If so, why is it failing only on first try and not the second?
I’m surprised at this...I had the starter rebuilt at a local shop when I rebuilt the car (which has 312 miles now). I would have thought this would have been part of the starter rebuild?

Appreciate any advice on this one...

[Luva65wagon]

Update: I felt I needed to get a better handle on how good the spark is, because it seemed kind of weak. So, i bought one of these spark testers:
https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-a...ster/10257_0_0

This thing worked great. I found the spark weak and in some cases almost non-existent and intermittent.
So, most of the ignition stuff was new as of three years ago except for the coil. I took it off and inside the main contact point where the cable hooks it to the distributor- it was awful...this might have been the original coil and one of the only parts I didn’t replace. So, I set out to buy a coil, condenser and set of points. So, which coil to buy...long story short, I ended up giving a nod to my late father in law and bought an MSD coil. Bought everything from Advanced auto parts...but the points have to be delivered. (I plan to convert to Pertronix,but I wanted to confirm what the problem was first and figured I should have an extra set anyway.) I was able to pick up the coil and condenser. I got home, took out the new coil and read the directions...and what? I need to add a ballast resistor. What a pain!

You do not need a ballast resistor. Fords use a resistor wire to do the same thing since the Ford coil needs the same "ballast resistor" function (lowering the voltage from; like, 12 to 9 volts. Most oil filled coils don't like 12v for long so they use the ballast resistor, or in Fords, a resistance wire to achieve this.

When you go to a Pertronix the coil will still want the resistance wire, but the Pertronix will want the 12 volts, so when you get to this point (highly recommend) you will find a wire on the back of the ignition switch with a bullet connector within a couple inches from the switch. The pink resistance wire plugs into this connector and runs only to the bulkhead connector. From there it tee's off into two wires on the engine side and one wire goes to the + coil terminal and the other to the "I" terminal on the solenoid. So, what this does is this: When you are cranking the engine over the solenoid is both turning over the starter and sending 12 volts out the "I" terminal. It sends the 12 volts up to the firewall bulkhead connector, which then allows the voltage to also go down to the coil. Meaning 12 Volts at the coil on cranking. When the car starts and the key is in the run position you get 12 volts out the ignition switch and it then hits that pink resistance wire and by the time it reaches the firewall it is now about 9 volts. So, I make a "T" connector to plug into that bullet connector at the ignition switch to add a new wire at the 12 volt end and run this wire out to the Pertronix. When you get to this point, we can hopefully arrange an assist.

But I resolved myself to that and will order that tomorrow. So, what the heck, I replaced the condenser and put the old coil back on...which is when I noticed how bad the contact was. Worked on that a bit...
Engine started right up. That’s the good news...

May have been the condenser or the yucky coil. Since you don't need to order a ballast resistor now, maybe put the MSD coil on just to get it over with. You should also check the point gap too, and make sure those contacts are clean and not pitted. EVEN after getting a new point set, clean the contacts well with Acetone or similar before installing and setting the gap.

The bad news..Now every time I try to start the engine, the first time the starter just spins...it doesn’t engage until i turn the key off at which time it seems to bang on the flywheel and stop. Then I try again and it works perfectly and starts right up. After a rest...this scenario repeat two more times! Why this pattern?

Not sure I understand the pattern. So, if you try to start it there is just a spinning sound of the starter motor, but the engine doesn't turn over... but when you release the key it sounds like the bendix engages? And the "two more times" is exactly this pattern, but starts on the 3rd try?

So, I looked in the shop manual...and it says, “the drive engagement holding coil contacts have failed.”
Would this be inside the starter?

Ford uses a retractable Bendix that is magnetically driven (most cars do, but do it sometimes with the solenoid being on the starter and being the magnetic part as well). So When you turn the key to START the solenoid sends 12 volts to the starter, which causes a magnetic field to be created. This field pulls a core downward that also pushes the Bendix out into the flywheel to engage the teeth. At the end of the travel of all this magnetic motion is the final switch contacts (you mention) inside the starter that connect 12 volts now, also, to start the starter spinning. The starter should NOT spin until the Bendix (the part with the teeth engaging the flywheel teeth) is fully engaged to the flywheel. If you are hearing spinning of the starter, but no spinning of the engine - it is the Bendix failing - either to engage the flywheel or its internals to stay firm and rotate the engine. They are designed to "kick back out of the flywheel teeth" when the engine starts since you don't want the Bendix to remain engaged with the flywheel with the engine running.

If so, why is it failing only on first try and not the second?
I’m surprised at this...I had the starter rebuilt at a local shop when I rebuilt the car (which has 312 miles now). I would have thought this would have been part of the starter rebuild?

Appreciate any advice on this one...

I'd resolve the points/condenser/new coil and get that all cleared up. Then see if this issue remains. I may have to hear it over a phone call to get a better sense of the sequence. Roger

[dhbfaster]

Put the new coil on last night and started it tonight and it runs fine. A little rough still but maybe it just needs to be driven, and I haven’t had a chance to check the gap on the points yet.
i checked all the voltages at the solenoid upon start and when running...and everything checks out per your description Roger.
Same problem with the starter, except it started the car on first crank and next time the starter just spins and the motor is not turning over...So it’s just not working 50% of the time. voltages at the solenoid near the battery are the same with the key in start position whether or not the starter works or doesn’t work. I also made sure the starter was not loose...it was good and tight. I’ll probably take the starter off tomorrow...

meanwhile...it was very difficult to work the choke cable...it has been getting stuck easily.
The cable seems to be part of the problem-I lubed it up well back at the rebuild, but it’s very stiff.
But see the screw in the middle of the pic that looks loose next to parts that look out of alignment?
Looks like this is part of the cause...I found it loose and tried to tighten it, and it’s stripped.
is this why everyone seems to have an extra carb??


697D2598-9381-4722-A40E-EBC70A7EB05E.jpeg


S

[Luva65wagon]

Put the new coil on last night and started it tonight and it runs fine. A little rough still but maybe it just needs to be driven, and I haven’t had a chance to check the gap on the points yet.

Definitely check those points. If the coil has been weird, or condenser, the points might be burnt a bit as well. But certainly a lot farther along than at first!

i checked all the voltages at the solenoid upon start and when running...and everything checks out per your description Roger. Same problem with the starter, except it started the car on first crank and next time the starter just spins and the motor is not turning over...So it’s just not working 50% of the time. voltages at the solenoid near the battery are the same with the key in start position whether or not the starter works or doesn’t work. I also made sure the starter was not loose...it was good and tight. I’ll probably take the starter off tomorrow...

The four terminals of the starter solenoid "should" have voltage as follows:
Key OFF = 12V on battery cable terminal (left-hand large terminal), 0V on both small and far-right large terminal (to starter).
Key RUN = 12V on battery cable terminal, 0V on left small terminal, ~9V on right small terminal, 0V on far-right large terminal.
Key START = 12V on batter cable terminal, 12V on left, right and far-right terminal.

There is a small, but possible, chance when you let the key move from the Start to the Run position that IF the solenoid were faulty it could provide that ~9V to the starter if the large contacts in the solenoid "stuck" when you released the key to RUN. This could cause the starter bendix to again engage the flywheel while the engine was running. I don't see this in your scenario, but posting it just for clarity.

Because your starter is rotating, and the engine is not rotating, the only possible way for this is a starter bendix getting weird in some way. Usually they don't get predictably bad (bad every time in some predictable fashion), but can work intermittently. The only way this type of starter can spin the motor is by engaging the bendix into the flywheel first to activate the internal motor switch. So, for me, the symptom seems to point to the bendix, which is very hard to test. Most bench testing checks the motor spin function. The bendix can be manipulated by hand, a bit, to see if it feels like it's free spinning (bad) or engaging. But yours might be hard to test. If the starter was rebuilt, did it get a new bendix or did they reuse the old one? The starter for your engine is not a rare beast, so I'd just replace it (again).

meanwhile...it was very difficult to work the choke cable...it has been getting stuck easily.
The cable seems to be part of the problem-I lubed it up well back at the rebuild, but it’s very stiff.
But see the screw in the middle of the pic that looks loose next to parts that look out of alignment?

If, as you say next, that screw is stripped, then it would try to twist things instead of pulling the choke closed, or opening it.

Looks like this is part of the cause...I found it loose and tried to tighten it, and it’s stripped.

is this why everyone seems to have an extra carb??

There are not many of your carburetor left in the world. It's certainly the cause of your choke issue. I don't remember any stripped screws when I rebuilt that carb (the second time). But I'd like to see a side view of the cable. Also, loosen the cable clamp and make sure if you move the choke on the carburetor by hand, or the choke knob by hand, both move freely. Might need a slightly longer screw (if there is depth and thread for one) or to try a helicoil if you can get on that small. Probably an 8-32 screw. Might be tough.

And don't get discouraged by all this. It's part of the shake out this car never really got to see because you had to leave for so long. If we could all show up and help it would be a blip on the history scale for this car to resolve these issues. But that's tough these days, so breathe and try to enjoy even these things.

[dhbfaster]

My wife ordered the starter this morning. I decided to spring for a new one from Autozone. I’m growing tired of this reman stuff on this and other parts in the past, and all the bad reviews on the online websites selling starters seem to be for the reman’s. Anyway 20% off for going online, but it has to go to my house next week. Plenty of other stuff to work on while I wait.

Roger, on the Pertronix...I’m thinking about just skipping the hassle and time to mess with the points and going right to the pertronix. It seems like we can get this done “virtually” one way or another and seems like the way to go. So...how are you getting that new added 12v wire through the firewall? What are you using for the T connector? Can you send a pic of that?

[Luva65wagon]

Don, because you want to maintain the pink resistance wire for your coil, you need to make a little male bullet connector on one end, female on the other, wire having a long (probably 18 gauge) wire tee'd into it to feed the Pertronix. I could make you one tomorrow and mail it off to you if you'd like.

You may have a spare hole already in the firewall to sneak this wire through and run it to the distributor. You'll have to poke around and see what you might have. Otherwise a small hole drilled with a grommet could be made in a hidden-ish location.

Hope we sleuthed out the starter problem correctly. Fingers crossed.

[dhbfaster]

Appreciate the offer on the wire Roger. Before I take you up on that, let me stick my head under the dash and see what I’m dealing with.

Back on the carb front...I disconnected the cable and when not connected to the carb the cable itself is smooth as silk. It seems the leverage and alignment between the banana shaped arm and the screw on the lower right with the spring on it is part of the problem. See pic.278E8D3B-858D-4B22-BEB2-BA06BCB7188F.jpgE369AF38-1739-458D-9263-0E086474FE0C.jpg
not sure why the second pic is up side down, but I was trying to show how the alignment at both extremes, which is worse with the screw loose.
I took the loose screw out and cleaned the threads. The hole is not much longer than the screw, but lots of width. Hardly any threads at all left on the female side.