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  #316  
Old 09-09-2013, 06:53 PM
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Hello, Gary.

"Whew! I hope I didn't bore you too badly."

No! That was all very interesting. I have studied carburetors and cam shafts but always took the distributer for granted. I pulled out an engine description for my 260 and verified that its distributer has "centrifugal vacuum advance".

I went back to the beginning of this thread on page 21 and have read so far up to page 15. Wow! You have gone though some struggles. That is an amazing setup, though, with the aluminum head, intake manifold, and custom headers. Jazzing up a V-8 is routine, but I've never read in detail about building a high-performance inline six. That is really cool.

I'll resume where I left off on page 15. It is like reading a novel and I want to see how it ends!

Later, Dennis.
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  #317  
Old 08-11-2014, 11:44 AM
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Well, I Get a RE-DO...

I now have first-hand experience with a "wiped cam".
I was driving to a car show in late June, when, all of a sudden, the engine started making awful metal-to-metal noises with a corresponding degradation in engine performance. It didn't quit, just ran really bad, and I was able to nurse it off to a parking lot where I called AAA. I had it towed home, and after agonizing about what to do next, decided to remove the head to "see the damage". When I removed the head, lo and behold, THERE WAS NO DAMAGE. At least none I could see in the cylinders or the head.
Subsequently, I had her towed to Long's Car Care Center in Woodinville, where I have commissioned Randy Long to do "whatever necessary" to get her back on the road.
Upon disassembly, sure enough, the cam was "wiped". It appeared to be the #5 cylinder, where both lifters were severely damaged; one of them had the whole bottom wiped away! There is some minor scoring in the cylinders and on the crank journals from "metal in the oil", but I haven't heard yet if it is bad enough to need machine work. I bought a new cam, a much more conservative one, and took it in with the car.
Needless to say, it doesn't look like Freddie will be making the trip to the Mini-Regional.
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  #318  
Old 08-11-2014, 03:59 PM
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Freddie's Transplant

Wow Gary! That is truly bad news. Keep us informed on how the repairs go, and do you know what causes this kind of damage so it doesn't happen to me? Larry
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  #319  
Old 08-11-2014, 05:28 PM
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1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved
2. Over adjusted rocker arms... added to the bad oil.
3. Plugged oil gallery that supplies oil to the lifters in cylinder 5.

If it was just the oil the all the lifters would show wear.

So my guess is problem 2 or 3..

Though I'm sure todays oils don't help.
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  #320  
Old 08-11-2014, 07:48 PM
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Zinc

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Originally Posted by Nathan289 View Post
1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved. Though I'm sure todays oils don't help.
I have used 5W-30 oil with Cam-Shield ZDDP additive in my re-built stock 260. Then I had an oil guy tell me that the additive changes the chemistry of the oil and I was better off using 15W-40 diesel oil. The diesel oil is supposed to have enough zinc.

What oil do you guys use?

See: "Another alternative is to use heavy-truck diesel-oil, which is formulated for 18-wheelers and at present still has a full complement of traditional anti-wear additives that have been significantly reduced in today's street-legal passenger car oils. (Though even diesel oils will start reducing zinc content in 2007 as big rigs gear up to receive catalytic converters.) Comp Cams swears by Shell Rotella T diesel oil for use in high-performance street cars."

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...#ixzz3A8scveys
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  #321  
Old 08-12-2014, 07:49 AM
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Diesel oils no longer have zinc in them either. New semis have catalytic converters and exhaust filters. That's why the fuel is now ultra low sulfur and the oil has been changed.

I run Valvoline vr1 racing oil. Usually in a 20-50 for summer 10-30 for winter.

Valvoline has vr 1
Kendall has gt 1
Lucas has a classic car formula
Amsoil has a classic car formula
Joe Gibbs racing """""""""
Schaffer's. """""""""""""


There are probably other oils that have zinc additives.

There's also the replacement zinc additives you can buy.. I know the hyper lube zinc additive doesn't contain zinc..
Comp cams, edelbrock, Lucas, and others sell bottles of zinc replacement.
Stp in the blue bottle iirc contains zddp which is a zinc replacement. Problem is I couldn't get anyone at stp to tell me how much zinc in parts per million the bottle contained nor how much ppm it would be mixed with 5 quarts of oil.

For good oil info check out bob the oil guy...
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  #322  
Old 08-12-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan289 View Post
1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved
2. Over adjusted rocker arms... added to the bad oil.
3. Plugged oil gallery that supplies oil to the lifters in cylinder 5.
#1) My engine builder used SAE 30 with ZDDP additive. I've been using Kendall GT1 Platinum 20-50 specifically because it has ZDDP.
#2) Have always seemed to have an issue with valve adjustment. No matter what I did, or how many times I did it over, I ended up with noisy lifters.... I wonder if I just had some bad lifters?
#3) My engine builder was particularly good at ensuring all galleries are clean. But... who knows.

Two possibilities Randy and I came up with is 1) inadequate break-in, and 2) too much valve spring pressure. I had ordered the "302" springs with dampers from Classic Inlines, but they sent the hell-for-bent compound springs, the strongest springs they sell... so we used 'em.
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  #323  
Old 08-12-2014, 11:11 PM
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Im thinking it was your springs..

And damage to the rocker assembly?
Any wear on other lifters?
How are the valve stems or the valve seats? High spring pressure should have hammered the valves.
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  #324  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:44 PM
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One broke rocker early on and now this? I say valve springs and probably break-in issues since it was not a sure-fire start-up and break-in. Unless you're going to race this you don't have to worry about ultra heavy springs. Time to regroup and think about this with intended use and learning from what's happened so far.
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  #325  
Old 08-16-2014, 12:41 PM
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Zinc

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Originally Posted by Nathan289 View Post
I run Valvoline vr1 racing oil. Usually in a 20-50 for summer 10-30 for winter.
Hello, Nathan.

I did some research and found that ZDDP additive can actually lower the lubrication of some oils. You can therefore get more reliable and predictable results by using an oil that is already formulated with ZDDP. Here are my notes:

Zinc Question:
10W-30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi “wear protection capability”, at 230 degrees F.
Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection. Zinc = 1472 ppm, Phos = 1544 ppm, ZDDP = 1500 ppm.
See: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35836

O’Reilly has Valvoline VR1 for $6.19/qt. Part Number: RACE10-30. It is $5.99/qt at Advance Auto.
See: http://www.valvoline.com/products/br...ng-motor-oil/6
VR1 Racing Oil (VR1) The #1 selling racing motor oil. High zinc provides race-level protection for any vehicle. High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications. Additional friction modifiers to help deliver maximum horsepower. Compatible with gasoline or alcohol fuels. Formulated for race engines, but compatible with passenger vehicles too. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. VR1 is available in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 10W-30, straight 30, and 20W-50. VR1 is designed for street use and normal service intervals of 3000 miles.

Valvoline VR1 10W-30.png

That all sounds reasonable.
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Last edited by ew1usnr; 08-17-2014 at 03:34 AM.
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  #326  
Old 08-17-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luva65wagon View Post
One broke rocker early on and now this? I say valve springs and probably break-in issues since it was not a sure-fire start-up and break-in. Unless you're going to race this you don't have to worry about ultra heavy springs. Time to regroup and think about this with intended use and learning from what's happened so far.
Yeah. It was actually a broken push rod, but I'd bet money that whatever might be wrong with the valve train contributed to it!

I have a theory... It's WAY off-the-wall... and makes assumptions I cannot justify... but it would explain a LOT:

Could it be possible the valve springs were "overpowering" the lifters?
Let's assume (the first ridiculous assumption)... the springs were causing significant leak-down during the period the lifter is on the lobe; then assume (the second ridiculous assumption)... the lifter didn't have enough time to refill during the period it is on the base circle. IF SO... I would get NOISY LIFTERS no matter how I tried to adjust them, or how many times I re-adjusted them (exactly what I have experienced), and the lifters would be getting HAMMERED on every revolution.

Considering its intended use... the new build will be using a much more conservative cam, and softer valve springs.
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  #327  
Old 08-17-2014, 09:56 AM
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May I suggest a comp cam h256?
Use new stock springs with shims if needed.

10w-30 vr1 racing oil is good.
Lucas has break in oil that is good and not too expensive.
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  #328  
Old 08-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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The trashed cam was a Clay Smith 274-112. The new cam is a 264-110.
I have turned the build over to a True Professional. I seem to have more money than sense, so the only sensible thing to do is to pay a True Professional to do the sensible thing, right? Springs have not been selected yet, but I'm sure Randy [and I?] will do the sensible thing!
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  #329  
Old 08-18-2014, 01:12 PM
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I'm not sure about all those assumptions, but oil pump capacity has more to do with it than the lifters or valve springs. Oil pump pressure should be a constant. I'm not sure (off the top of my head) what they offered for high-volume (not pressure) oil pumps on the L6, but that would be something to look at if you are not certain what was installed.

I know, just from history, that getting oil all the way up to the rockers was an issue requiring external tactics to get it up there, but whether that is an issue with lifters as well, I don't know. Usually by now (50 years post engine release) anything that can be known about these motors has been published - as well as any and all modifications you can and should do to make them survive any upgrades you want to throw at them.

You probably did well with going this route. I think we're all in agreement that we'd like to see more of your car out-n-about.
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  #330  
Old 08-18-2014, 03:38 PM
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The ford six performance handbook covers the oiling issue..

Tricks like grinding the shank down on the headbolt that goes in the oiling passage.

If you don't have the book already I'd be looking into buying it. Classic inline sells it.

Wow a 274 cam that's a lot of cam. You plan on racing?
I'm not sure I'd run the 264 it's still a lot of cam. But you do have the C.I. head so maybe that makes it different.
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