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Thread: Freddie's Back on the Road!

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451
    Okay...
    I found two possible brackets at Summit:
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-20-58/overview/
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-20-72/overview/

    ...and a dashpot:
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-11-4

    From the description for the dashpot:
    "These Holley carburetor dashpots are designed to be used on manual transmission vehicles. They will prevent engine stalling on sudden deceleration, fits most Holley dashpot brackets."

    I can't see how the bracket(s) would fit, and can't find an installation guide to clarify. How would I know which bracket to get, and why does it say the dashpot is to be used on manual transmission vehicles?
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451

    Orphan Show - Bothell, July 19, 2015

    I'll be taking Freddie to her SECOND public appearance since the "rebuild" this Sunday at Country Village in Bothell. At the Maltby show, a representative of Corvairs Northwest invited me to enter their Orphan Car show at Country Village, so I did!
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  3. #63

    Dashpot

    Quote Originally Posted by MacDee View Post
    ... why does it say the dashpot is to be used on manual transmission vehicles?
    I think that they made a mistake (see notes below).

    Here are some photos of the dashpot and bracket on my Autolite 2100 carburetor to maybe help you visualize how your bracket and dahpot might fit together:
    1-DCP_0183.jpg

    2-DCP_0184.jpg

    3-DCP_0185.jpg

    4-DCP_0186.jpg

    See Page 8 on: http://www.hansenwebdesign.com/truck...Carburetor.pdf

    Tech Notes: "Engines equipped with automatic transmissions require a dashpot anti-stall device as protection against loading the engine when the accelerator pedal is suddenly depressed and released. The dashpot retards the closing rate of the throttle plate as it approaches the idle position, allowing the engine to dissipate the raw fuel discharged into the intake manifold by the accelerating pump. The dashpot slows the final phases of throttle plate closing by means of a spring-loaded diaphragm. When the accelerator pedal is released, the throttle plate approaches the idle position and a tab on the throttle lever contacts the lower edge of the dashpot lever. This rotates the dashpot lever, causing the dashpot lever to impinge on the dashpot diaphragm rod. As the rod is moved into the dashpot, the tapered step of the rod engages the diaphragm washer. Continued movement of the rod will cause a corresponding movement of the diaphragm, compressing the air in the diaphragm chamber above the diaphragm. The compressed air bleeds out of the diaphragm chamber through a groove in the seat of the diaphragm washer, retarding the closing speed of the throttle plate. This allows the engine to properly use the charge of accelerating fuel, preventing stalling from an over-rich condition in the manifold. When the throttle is again opened, the pressure is released from the dashpot diaphragm rod and the dashpot return spring moves the rod off its seat in the diaphragm washer. This allows air to flow back into the diaphragm chamber as the spring returns the rod and diaphragm to their original position.”
    Dennis Pierson
    Tampa, FL
    "The Wonder Falcon"

    '63 Futura Hardtop (260, Ford-O-Matic, bench seat)

  4. #64
    Gary - would be helpful to see similar pics of your carb near the throttle lever. And yeah, I think that was a typo on the manual transmission thigh.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



  5. #65
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451
    The description on the bracket says "for Holley carburetors with two tapped holes in the throttle body...". I looked at my carb and saw the two holes. With that, and the pictures Dennis provided, I think I can do it!

    Thank you, guys!
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,430
    Quote Originally Posted by MacDee View Post
    The description on the bracket says "for Holley carburetors with two tapped holes in the throttle body...". I looked at my carb and saw the two holes. With that, and the pictures Dennis provided, I think I can do it!

    Thank you, guys!
    I KNOW you can do it!

    All my Autolite 1100's had a Dashpot for automatics and none for the standard. It is molded into the body on that one.

    Proof readers - hard to get good help these days.

    Jeff Watson
    Seattle, WA
    '63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)

  7. #67
    Passing this on - just in case the instructions are not clear on this issue.

    Though a dashpot has been used as the idle stop by some (I've have the pleasure of working on) it isn't supposed to be. The dashpot should start to work around, maybe, 1500 RPM and should control the deceleration the rest of the way towards idle. This is debatable and adjustable by you. Regardless, there should be some amount of travel the dashpot plunger can still travel while the idle stop lever is against the idle screw. The dashpot is simply a "slow-down device" and not a stop. Don't let it be the idle stop and depress the plunger all the way to its physical, internal, stop.

    In addition you mentioned (after-the-fact) that it was dying just sitting there idling in neutral. The dashpot will not solve this issue. But I say address one issue at a time. If the dying at idle in neutral still occurs afterward, this may just be a idle screw or air/fuel adjustment.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



  8. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Luva65wagon View Post
    Passing this on - just in case the instructions are not clear on this issue.

    Though a dashpot has been used as the idle stop by some (I've have the pleasure of working on) it isn't supposed to be. The dashpot should start to work around, maybe, 1500 RPM and should control the deceleration the rest of the way towards idle. This is debatable and adjustable by you. Regardless, there should be some amount of travel the dashpot plunger can still travel while the idle stop lever is against the idle screw. The dashpot is simply a "slow-down device" and not a stop. Don't let it be the idle stop and depress the plunger all the way to its physical, internal, stop.
    I intend to adjust the dashpot such that there is just enough throttle-closing delay to prevent the "underrun".

    Quote Originally Posted by Luva65wagon View Post
    In addition you mentioned (after-the-fact) that it was dying just sitting there idling in neutral. The dashpot will not solve this issue. But I say address one issue at a time. If the dying at idle in neutral still occurs afterward, this may just be a idle screw or air/fuel adjustment.
    From Dennis' explanation, it seem like (I hope, anyway...) that maybe it will. If the problem is indeed the rich shot of gas from the accelerator pump, the dashpot would help that, too!
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  9. #69
    We'll see. That entire explanation seemed odd to me (no offence to you for posting it Dennis) but why would this not also be an issue with a manual car and require the same thing? The other benefits may exist, as noted, but it isn't clear from what I read how this relates to manual versus automatic. And only automatic cars got dashpots.

    I tutored under some pretty wise mechanics in my youth and I recall a discussion I had with one of them on this subject. I had a '62 Falcon I had swapped in a 289 from my Fairlane into it and had similar stalling issues. Drove me crazy. I changed carbs and didn't have a dashpot. They explained it just about the same way I did that it had to do with the "free-spinning" inertial effect of a manual-clutch flywheel versus that of a low inertia flex-plate with an inertia-robbing torque converter which tended to load the motor on deceleration. The dashpot created an artificial "inertial effect" similar to the clutch flywheel. I've never verified what they said in this age of the Internet, but it still makes sense to me.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



  10. #70
    Interesting how you think of something the instant you hit "Submit!"

    Perhaps this burn condition occurs because on a manual car the fuel is given a chance to burn whereas an automatic car it isn't. So both explanations may be correct and one is the effect of the other. Given the inertial effect of a manual flywheel perhaps the burn-time is extended and you don't create a rich stall condition.

    Gosh, now I've got to find out more on this.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



  11. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451

    "Freddie"

    The Forum is pretty quite, so I'll throw out this bit of silliness...

    I showed my car at a little show at Brittany Park Assisted Living Center in Woodinville a couple of weeks ago. While there, I noticed a woman who seemed to have some authority at the facility in that she seemed to be directing some of the volunteers and staff and was chatting up the residents and car owners.
    As she approached my car, I noticed her name tag said "Freddie". "FREDDIE!" I shouted. Her eyes lit up, she looked at me, and her smile turned into a "do I know you?" kind of a look. I then pointed to my car and said "HER name is Freddie, too!" I showed her Freddie's "baby book" which explains that her name is Freddie because of the front license plate frame (Fred's Fine Cars), but that she is actually a she because of, obviously, the baby blue color and the whitewall tires.
    Freddie, the woman, turned out to be the Marketing Director for the place, and she was named after her father. He died before she was born, and her mother had decided to name her baby after her late husband regardless of gender.
    What a delightful coincidence...
    Last edited by MacDee; August 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 PM.
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  12. #72
    I still think it's all closer to a Freddie Kruger sort of thing when it comes to Freddie... but that's just me sayin'



    As you'll read in my thread... it is contagious.

    Cool story though.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



  13. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodinville, WA
    Posts
    451

    Dashpot Update

    Haven't been working on the car much, but I did finally get the dashpot installed... not that it did much good. More about that in a minute.
    I ended up buying BOTH of the brackets shown for Holley carbs in the Summit catalog. Neither one fit. The holes in my base plate for attaching the bracket were too small to use the screws supplied with the brackets.
    One of the brackets appeared as if it would pick up both of those hole locations, so I made some "bushings" to fill the holes in the bracket so I could use smaller screws which fit the holes in the base plate.
    That worked great... but the bracket placed the dashpot WAY TOO CLOSE to the throttle lever.
    Okay... I figured out out the other bracket fit, using ONE of the holes in the base plate and one of the carb mounting studs. That one positioned the dashpot just about right. Cool!
    Well, I couldn't seem to get the dashpot adjusted so it did any good! It would either hold the throttle open, or else it would not be effective. I couldn't find any middle ground! In the meantime, I stripped the stupid threads on the PLASTIC body of the dashpot!! I finally just took the thing off and threw it on my workbench.

    Subsequently...
    I found this video demonstrating how the dashpot is SUPPOSED to work:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJuzhLorW1A

    After watching that, I think I've figured out what my problem was (is)... my throttle return springs aren't strong enough! If I had the dashpot adjusted anywhere close to where it should be, the throttle lever would simply stop as soon as it reached the extended dashpot, and not close any further. The return springs couldn't overcome the friction inherent in the dashpot!

    So I guess my next step is to get some stronger springs, and a new dashpot.

    Are throttle return springs generally available at auto parts stores? I really don't want to buy another spring without giving it a "pull test" and comparing it with my current ones. Also, am I stuck with buying another stupid plastic Holley dashpot, or is there something available that fits the same but is made out of METAL?
    Gary MacDonald
    ROGER's...
    EX... '63 Hardtop
    Had...
    Scarebird front discs
    200 w/ CI alum head
    C4

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,430
    Gary – I can’t answer your questions, but I do recommend you start a vigorous exercise routine so you have the strength to overcome the added pressure that will be required on the accelerator pedal after spring installation.

    Jeff Watson
    Seattle, WA
    '63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)

  15. #75
    Gary,

    You can buy springs in a kit with multiple sizes or you can buy them individually. As time marches forward I find I have a box full of springs since you can never tell what you'll need. I found McLendon's has a very nice assortment of individual springs of many shapes and sizes. I was so impressed I took a picture that day:

    springs.jpg

    I'm just a little perturbed by making adjustable threaded things out of plastic. They do the same thing with those under-dash brake light switches. Good luck not messing one of those up. You may be stuck with the Holley dashpot. I tried to find one different when I added the dashpot to my Ranchero and other that some NOS thing they are not readily available.

    Have not been able to watch video yet, but having adjusted so many of these it sounds from your description you are on the right track.
    Roger Moore

    63 "Flarechero"
    powered by: 347ci stroker | Tremec T5 | 8" 3:45 TracLoc rear



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