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  #436  
Old April 12th, 2016, 08:57 AM
PhilC PhilC is offline
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It's alive!

Nice to see and hear your engine run Don, must be really happy to reach that milestone.

Read of the strut rod bushing issue, and best I can recall, the 60 and early 61s cars used smaller strut rods than later models. Memory is a bit foggy on this, but seem to remember the early strut rods had issues and Ford beefed them up later in the production run.

What I do know is, the early models used different bushings. I ran into this several years ago (easily 15+) and remember going back and forth with the supplier to finally get the correct bushings.

On the off chance you don't have it, I've posted the pages from the shop manual re: strut rod and bushing replacement and diagram of strut rod arrangement (not the best copy). Disregard if you already have that info.

Keep up the good progress!

Phil
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File Type: pdf diagram.pdf (228.0 KB, 3 views)
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  #437  
Old April 12th, 2016, 10:33 AM
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Phil,

These struts are smaller than those on my 63 or my 65. The bushings I have (to rework) are close the correct ID for the strut (under compression they should collapse and remove any slop), but the bushing has a step in it intended to go into the front frame hole to center it. It was almost 1/4" too large to fit in the hole. There was also a bushing of sorts in the hole I removed. Helped little. So these I was able to carve these to fit.

That wasn't so much a problem. The problem is that the depth of these bushings is pretty fixed (they are very stiff) and if you install a washer, a bushing, shove it in the hole, a bushing... now you have barely the space for a washer much less a nut. The back nut could be backed up (Don tried, but could not get them to budge), but as it is right now, with one bushing left AS-IS and a washer behind it - the lower control arm is held with little binding of its bushing - i.e., not being pulled forward against the lower control arm bushing. So if I can thin-out the front bushing to get a washer and nut on the thing, we may be golden. That's the plan so far.

I don't like how stiff these bushing are though. I expect them to be more rubber than plastic-like. These are more plastic-like. Like a POLY bushing, but I don't think they are Poly. I see these bushings splitting in my minds-eye, but we'll have to watch and see.
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  #438  
Old April 12th, 2016, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhbfaster View Post
Vacuum advance stuff...I'm still pretty fuzzy on how all that stuff works.
I've labored a few time to explain this on the forum to a couple folk. It's still out there burning holes in "the cloud" I'm sure. But as basic as I can get...

Your car, unlike most cars, has only vacuum advance. Most cars have mechanical and vacuum advance. Ford's better idea was the Spark-O-Matic system, or some such name as that. This is only a vacuum advance and uses a special carburetor to feed the correct vacuum to the distributor to advance your timing.

You have to advance timing (cause the spark to occur earlier) as your engine RPM increases. The fuel still need "time" to burn, so you usually need to advance timing to give it this chance. It also needs to vary based upon load. This is usually where a combination of centrifugal (mechanical) advance and vacuum advance work in tandem. Each offer varying characteristics to allow for overlapping conditions. But you have only one type, which has to work well in all conditions. It sort of did.

Anyway, the special carburetor is the key to this working and the spark control, which is an odd term relating to a carburetor, has this special vacuum feed to handle spark advance via only vacuum. If you use a carburetor with this circuit missing (ask me how I know about that - ) or if the wrong spark advance valve is used, the car will be gutless at best and will detonate itself to pieces at worst.

I have no way of knowing if your new one is right, but I know the old one doesn't have a hole in its diaphragm. But I don't know if it was right either. I'll probably leave the new one.

Quote:
Pertronix ignition - That's just the module that replaces the points inside the distributor right? if you say it's the way to go, then let's do it. The points setup seems a bit flimsy.
These are consistent if anything. No adjustment, wear, rare failure, steady output signal. Points worked for years, obviously, but required dealing with them (adjustment or replacement) often. Points are now almost all Chinese made (no offense to anyone, or you Don), but the quality has gone way down on any I buy today. There may still be a gooder brand to spec out, but I just find them easier to replace with a Pertronix than bothering with points - at least on my own stuff. Pertronix, I'm sure, loves to hear that. The set I have were on my wagon, but I upgraded to DuraSpark II ignition on it to gain mechanical advance and to install the Weber carburetor.
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  #439  
Old April 12th, 2016, 01:20 PM
dhbfaster dhbfaster is offline
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Man...Your really causing the gray stuff to stretch.
Ok, I did a little reading at lunch...have a few dumb questions and then I'm going to study all this more tonight when I have a chance (unless it gets in the way getting the muffler on right.) My questions/comments below under your comments in quotes and bold...

"Your car, unlike most cars, has only vacuum advance."
WOW. What I'm confused about is I thought that inside my distributor I saw weights and springs. That is not the mechanical advance? Did I see only springs? (I wish I was home to check to confirm that's not my imagination or something I saw on youtube.)


" Most cars have mechanical and vacuum advance. Ford's better idea was the Spark-O-Matic system, or some such name as that. This is only a vacuum advance and uses a special carburetor to feed the correct vacuum to the distributor to advance your timing.

You have to advance timing (cause the spark to occur earlier) as your engine RPM increases. The fuel still need "time" to burn, so you usually need to advance timing to give it this chance. It also needs to vary based upon load. This is usually where a combination of centrifugal (mechanical) advance and vacuum advance work in tandem. Each offer varying characteristics to allow for overlapping conditions. But you have only one type, which has to work well in all conditions. It sort of did.

Anyway, the special carburetor is the key to this working and the spark control, which is an odd term relating to a carburetor, has this special vacuum feed to handle spark advance via only vacuum. If you use a carburetor with this circuit missing (ask me how I know about that - ) or if the wrong spark advance valve is used, the car will be gutless at best and will detonate itself to pieces at worst.

I have no way of knowing if your new one is right, but I know the old one doesn't have a hole in its diaphragm. But I don't know if it was right either. I'll probably leave the new one."
Ok, I think I understand everything down to this last paragraph. But just to confirm, you are talking about the carb and the diaphragm in the carb?

Ok, on the Pertronix, no offense on the China thing...you know I could easily start a side conversation on that..., anyway, the Pertronix simply replaces the points and changes that function to solid state correct? Seems kind of no-brainer.

So it does seem like vacuum is very critical then. Do we need to measure it more precisely? When I had my finger on that tube- it didn't seem like there was a whole lot of vacuum there.

What about the coil? Could a weak coil cause the problem we were having? Any way to test it? Ok, I'll save the rest of my ignition questions for later... Added this: http://classicmechanic.blogspot.com/...tion-coil.html

Phil...thanks for the info. Glad you caught the video too.
Back to work for me...
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  #440  
Old April 12th, 2016, 02:00 PM
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Don,

1) You'd have a very rare 6 cylinder distributor if it had weights and springs. There may be (memory is fuzzy here) a spring (only one) to pull the point plate back when vacuum isn't present, but no weights for sure. This spring may actually be in the vacuum advance too, since I can't picture its presence in my memory.

2) Yes, the external "power valve looking thing" is the Spark-o-Magic vacuum controller. It is spring-loaded to open only when the vacuum is strong enough to operate it. If the spring is too strong or too weak will greatly effect the advance curve.

3) Yes, Pertronix is a no-brainer... especially when being offer to you at a smokin' deal.

4) Vacuum at that port should have been full. I'll hook my vacuum gauge up to it next time and actually measure it. This might be helpful.

5) Coils are easy to measure with an ohm meter. Plenty of on-line tutorials on that. I suggest the Pertronix site since they also have a requirement for the Pertronix 1 kit, which is what you'll be putting in. The spec should not be too far off even for a the original coil, which is what I used too (yellow-top coil). I have a couple of these laying around too, if you find yours to be questionable.
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  #441  
Old April 12th, 2016, 02:08 PM
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Oh - we'll need full 12 volts to the Pertronix - tapped from the terminal of your ignition switch (key-on 12 volt source) feeding the pink wire. There is a bullet connector about 3" from your switch we'll need to tap into. You might add that to your list of things to-do. We'll leave the regular resistor wire fed voltage to the coil, since it (your coil) is not designed to see 12+ volts all the time like the Pertronix is.
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  #442  
Old April 12th, 2016, 09:09 PM
dhbfaster dhbfaster is offline
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Whew...(Pertronix) sounds like that's what I call "Continuous improvement" Roger. I gotta try not to get distracted and get this thing fully running normally stock first, suspension done, steering working, brakes working, muffler in place, doors done, door panels on, new tires on, hubcaps done, antenna on, new mirrors on and at some point...drive it. (It all seems so close...but all these little things!!! BUT, shoot I'll buy Pertronix from you if for nothing else to help pay for all your gas coming over to help me!!! (In fact we should put one of those red cans at my place in your tank and one in Kenny's anyway...) At this rate Pertronix it seems like an end of summer project if I'm lucky...

Attached is a pic of the carb and the springs I was talking about. What do these springs do?

Also, for what's it's worth I talked to both Debbie & her husband (a career 35 year mechanic) and my father in law (who knows quite a bit about ignitions and fuel systems (& has a few few patents) today. Neither of them know falcons like you know falcons by any means, but they both do have quite a bit of time around engines old and new. Interestingly they both came out with the same result after our conversation- First they reminded me how new and precisely tight the engine is- saying it might require a fast idle for a while. They think there's a good chance you've nailed it with what you've found on the carb. If that doesn't do it, they think it almost has to be a vacuum leak somewhere. Neither thinks the valve adjustments would be off- especially since it sounded so good, but can't rule it out. Neither (both from El Paso) think vapor lock is likely...but again can't rule it out. Both think it's time to put the carb back on and give it another shot.
One thing I know from my troubleshooting experience at work, as much as possible we should try one thing at at time. I'll add heater hose couplers to my list of stuff to pick up from Napa. As always
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  #443  
Old April 13th, 2016, 03:07 AM
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ew1usnr ew1usnr is offline
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Tight engine

"They reminded me how new and precisely tight the engine is- saying it might require a fast idle for a while"

Hello, Don.

I had my engine was rebuilt and was disappointed when I first drove it home. The thing drove like a tractor. The rebuilt engine was so tight that it took about 1000 miles before it began to loosen up. After that it just ran better and better as I put more miles on the car.

Be patient when you first start driving your car. Put 3000 miles on it before forming an opinion on its performance.

Driving the car will be as much a part of restoring it as all the other work you are doing.

Don't just take it on one or two test runs and then park it in the garage. Get out and drive that little car!
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  #444  
Old April 13th, 2016, 03:40 PM
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Don,

Don't fret over the Pertronix addition too much. It really is a 10 minute add and will make even this motor break-in period a more predictable event. I'll make the plug-in wire and bring with. Whether we do it that day or not, it will be a plug-and-play install whenever you are comfortable adding it.

Thanks for the gas offer. Not needed. I got a cool flag coming soon.

This may be a long post, so forgive me in advance... I'd like to explain some things - not to mention the way my brain works; if you'll oblige me the opportunity.

On Saturday I instantly ran through all the possible reasons for the problem - and unfortunately (for you, as it has been for others) I have a tendency to spew all that information out; maybe in person, maybe here. I know, for a fact, I've more than once freaked people out and scared them because I think they think I may think it is all of these things that are happening. I think.

Anecdotally, the Pertronix allowed me to drive my hobbled wagon from southern Oregon all the way to Seattle a few years ago. I'd driven to the FCA Regional in Woodburn and afterward was going to continue down I5 in a caravan and leave them to visit my Mom in Grants Pass. About the time we started to climb the southern mountain passes the car started bucking like a Bronco. If I let my foot off the gas it would run OK, but it made pulling the hills a scary arduous thing. I nursed it to my Mom's with the moral support of the California Falcon Club members staying with me the entire way (still a huge thanks to them for that) and spent my "visit" changing all I could easily change. I thought I had it resolved by pulling the Pertronix and going back to points/condenser/new coil, but I didn't get 10 miles out of town and it was back to bucking with a vengeance! Way worse than before. Here I was on the side of the freeway, freaking a little, so I decided to reinstall the Pertronix. It was all I had to try. The car started (it always did) and off I went, fingers crossed. The issue was still present, but was far better. No worse than it was when I was when heading down. Thankfully, I made it all the way back to Seattle this way. Once I got over the passes and into flatland it was tolerable - but slow going. Once home I was better able to diagnose it as being the carburetor. It was also at this point I learned about the Spark-O-Magic. My carb needed this, but didn't have it. That story's here on the forum somewhere. But the moral of this story is that this Pertronix kit made what was a failing carburetor something that kept me from calling a tow truck. That would have been a very expensive tow.

From what I've heard, and saw, your friends are meticulous mechanics. Would not consider for an instant to detract from their ability. But we're all human and even I catch myself doing or missing something. Two heads are always better than one. Or maybe three or four in this case. Anyway, I learn from everyone.

Oh, OK, another short story about me... sorry.

Though I never got into the automotive field as a professional (something I regret to this day) - I have been working on cars (not just Falcons or Fords) since I was about 11 years old. That's when we moved to a small farm. At the age of 13 or 14 I joined the FFA (Future Farmers of America) in junior high school. In my first year I entered a regional contest which involved many things; from driving tractors, backing up trailers, using forklifts, etc. One contest was a mechanical aptitude test where we were presented with a tractor that the officials had purposefully disabled, removed parts, broken things, etc. We were told to find and write down as many things wrong with the tractor we could in 30 minutes. Out of about 100 entrants I won first place in this contest. Not only did I win - I found more things wrong with the tractor than all of the officials found wrong. Quite the feeling as a kid to have adults wrap their arms over my shoulder and say "Here's the boy who found more wrong with that tractor than we did." Fast-forward to 16 I was hired on at a local auto parts store. My Dad had been buying parts from them for years. It had a machine shop and a repair shop behind it. I learned the ropes in the machine shop and got to drive around delivering parts to all the mechanics around town. I got to know all of them very well and I used every opportunity to soak up a lot of information. I moving to Washington at 19 and got hired where I work today 4 months later as their plant maintenance mechanic. 36 years have past now and I've built, fixed, and repaired just about anything that exists in that place. At 21 I was tasked to build 9 very elaborate fuel-flow testing machines we sold to Ford and Chrysler for $60K a piece in the 80's ($165K in today's money). That was back in the carburetor days. We also have had a small fleet of company vehicles I was responsible for. I've since moved into management, but so wish I'd have stayed on the mechanical side. Way less stress and not that much less money. But I didn't and that's that.

Anyway, just tooting my own horn here. My apologies for that.

Also, being a bit self deprecating here, I know I come across to some (maybe everybody ) as a know-it-all. It's only so I can maintain having the most posts on this forum and for no other reason. Some have accused me of worse. Not saying you are, Don. I think you get me. Though I know in my head I'm just trying to be helpful, I know some have been offended when I try to explain things the way I do. I tend to be verbose. (hint, hint)

OK, so I think I'm done with that part of this post. I hope it came off as intended.

As for your car...

This is not a tight-engine, need for fast-idle issue. If you recall we had the idle screw hard-up against the tension spring and it didn't run. It may require a faster idle to keep from stalling while it breaks in, but we'll know better that when it is running correctly.

Thanks for posting the picture of the distributor springs. Yes, they are pull springs to bring the point plate back against the pull of the vacuum advance. They are also specific in-that their strength works in conjunction with the strength of the vacuum pulling against them to control the rate of spark advance. But there are no weights here, no mechanical advance.

Regarding the vapor lock, I was only expressing my concern as a "future potential" based upon the current heater hose routing. I too doubt it is contributed to the current issue, but knew from experience that the routing of that heater hose could come back to bite you in the future if left as it was.

Valve adjustment should be checked if we rule out all other possible issues. It is solid lifter motor, so something might have slipped.

There are so few places on this motor to induce a vacuum leak. I made a new carburetor base gasket to replace that one you used. I don't think it was leaking, but this one will work better. I had my vacuum gauge with me, but we'll hook it up next time.

I agree "shotgun" troubleshooting is poor troubleshooting. I suspected carburetor and went with that first and found some questionable things. We'll try that first and go on to the next if we need to.

Also, I had a couple yellow-top coils which I tested last night. Both were good so I restored one up in case we need to swap that. I'll bring it.

The carburetor is all checked and closed up. Apart from some screws I tightened more, an aluminum washer I changed to copper (like the original was), the warped plate I flattened, and a complete inspection again - the rest was pristine. It is not certain any of these things I found could have been the cause, but we'll cross our fingers.

I'm game to bring all of this out again this Saturday if you are available. Can't spend the whole day this time, but we can try a lot. Let me know.

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  #445  
Old April 14th, 2016, 10:19 AM
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Luva65wagon Luva65wagon is offline
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Strut rod bushings are machined now. They machined very well because how stiff they are. I only did one bushing for each side and we can either use the thick on the back or the front. Either way we should have enough length of thread to get the washers and nuts on and we'll err towards minimizing lower control arm getting pulled forward too much.

2016-04-14 10.12.45.jpg

As I said earlier I don't really like the stiff nature of these bushings and did a little research yesterday on the brand stamped into them "RAMCOA" - and there are many messages on web sites about them. Many claim they fail very quickly - calling them Thermoplastic and not rubber. The failure is as I thought it might be; namely, cracking apart. But some say, "So far, so good." My guess is they do not need near the compression of rubber and people are over tightening them. I can't imagine they would endure much of that.

You'll just have to watch them and if you see any sign of failure, go to plan B (whatever that is). Time will be the judge how well they survive.
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  #446  
Old April 14th, 2016, 11:06 AM
dhbfaster dhbfaster is offline
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Whew....endless thanks Roger.
Saturday is a go as far as I am concerned.
Kenny, any chance you feel like making it down to finish the doors? or help with these last 2 brake lines?
I'm going to try and focus tonight and tomorrow night on the other stuff it will take to go for a drive:
  • Last 2 brake lines at least bent into shape (then I'll need advice on bench bleeding the master if we don't have time to do it...but that seems easy enough.)
  • Tranny fluid (quick one), getting the tranny linkage back on and working.
  • IF I get a chance...muffler bracket and turn signal...but I can do that stuff any time.
Got your message on the other stuff Roger...



Huge thanks guys, and it will be only apple fritters this time.
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  #447  
Old April 14th, 2016, 11:22 AM
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Don,

I forgot to mention I went to make the wire for the Pertronix last night and... I think my wire connectors are at your place along with the thread insert kit. Hopefully you have two orange trays there.

If the carb works and the engine runs good, I should have some extra time left for some of the other mechanical bits like brake-lines. We will play it by ear.

I can tell, you are getting antsy to drive her! Been there so many times. It will be worth the wait, always is.
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Old April 14th, 2016, 01:59 PM
dhbfaster dhbfaster is offline
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Don't worry, your orange tray is here (but two of them? I'm thinking 1 big one- not sure about a 2nd one.) Plenty of connectors. I had moved it off the work bench so I could see it. I was thinking about doing a picture of my connector kit (about 1" by 2" by 1" in size) compared to your connector kit (about 18" by 12" by 2" in size) and making a comparison of my falcon knowledge compared to yours...but I decided yours wasn't big enough for an accurate comparison! Now that I hear there's another tray somewhere...

I am getting a bit antsy...I would be anyway, but especially with that potential "extended business trip" I was telling you about. It is not all bad, but that is looking more and more imminent...more on that offline this weekend.
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  #449  
Old April 14th, 2016, 02:28 PM
dhbfaster dhbfaster is offline
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PS...stopped by Napa at lunch. I'll have the valve cover gasket tomorrow just in case and the hose couplers for when I can get to extending and rerouting that heater hose. I looked in the old pictures, and it was slightly different than how I have it now. It still went left, but didn't hug the metal lines like I have it doing now.
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  #450  
Old April 14th, 2016, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhbfaster View Post
Don't worry, your orange tray is here (but two of them? I'm thinking 1 big one- not sure about a 2nd one.) Plenty of connectors. I had moved it off the work bench so I could see it. I was thinking about doing a picture of my connector kit (about 1" by 2" by 1" in size) compared to your connector kit (about 18" by 12" by 2" in size)...
So this sounds to me as though I did bring my connectors. Yes, I also have a couple smaller sets I've made up. Can never have enough connectors.

Now that I think about it I may not have brought the Threadsert tray, just grabbed the tool and a couple inserts for your mirror install (which we should do as well, if possible). I'll verify that I have the tonight or in the morning, so if you don't see a 2nd tray, not to worry.
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