Rainier Falcons > The FalconForum  

Go Back   Rainier Falcons > The FalconForum > General Forums > Tech Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-26-2013, 06:03 PM
ew1usnr's Avatar
ew1usnr ew1usnr is offline
Senior Forum User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 846
Dual Master Cylinder Conversion

I have a 1963 Falcon and want to replace my single reservoir brake master cylinder with a dual reservoir cylinder and am following this set of instructions:
http://www.cometeastcarclub.org/PDFs/Conversion_of_SingleBowl_to_Duel_BowlMasterCylinde r.pdf

I went to NAPA after work and picked up the items on the list in the instructions, but after looking at the parts at home, nothing matches.

I bought a 1967 Ford Mustang Master Cylinder and two 8" x 3/16" brake lines. The holes on the master cylinder are 1/2" diameter and too big for the brake line fittings. Which is incorrect, the brake lines or the master cylinder?
Loose Fit.JPG

The master cylinder holes have nipples,
A nipple.JPG

... and the 3/6" holes on the tee fitting for the taillight switch have tapered cone-shaped bottoms that the brake lines do not want to tighten against. Should the tee adapters have nipple fittings like the master cylinder?
Cone shaped hole.JPG

The other tee is straight though and has nothing for the brake line seats to push against. The brake lines say 3/16" x 8", but they also say JAPANESE. The tips of the brake lines are flat. Is that correct, or should they be conical?
1-DCP_4818.JPG

Last edited by ew1usnr; 12-26-2013 at 06:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-26-2013, 07:00 PM
doghows's Avatar
doghows doghows is offline
Senior Forum User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sequim
Posts: 2,112
I did the same swap same directions.. Many here have as well.

Your master cylinder is correct and so are the lines, you must use an adapter to put the two together. The "nipples" in the master do not matter.
Both your T's are fine again you must use adapters to make the lines fit. If I remember there is one coupler you need that is very hard to find. The club bought a bunch of them just for that reason, I think Roger has them.
Think about it this way, all you are doing is providing a differant path for the fluid to follow, you are not regulating the flow or pressure just redirecting it.
If I remember correctly my rear brake line went straight to the master and the front come from the master to a T. The brake light switch goes into the top of the first T. Then the line splits one more time to accommodate the two front brake lines.. Hope this helps if not I'm sure you will get some more helpful tips.
__________________
63 Sedan Delivery
5.0 HO EFI AOD 8" rear
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:08 PM
Jeff W's Avatar
Jeff W Jeff W is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 3
I didn't use the adapters. I cut the flare off of the end of the 3/16" tube and removed the existing tube nut, put on the correct size flare nut and re-flared the tube.

You have to get the correct size nuts for the 3/16" tube which is not easy to find.

The other thing to remember is that you need to do a "double flare" in the tube for brake lines.

The nut size is:1/2"-20 x 3/16" and 9/16"-18 x 3/16". You will need one of each.

This is the link where I normally purchase from, but I'm sure there are others:

http://www.ultrastang.com/products5.php

I feel using these right sized nuts rather than adapters makes for a cleaner installation and have less potential for leaks... on the other hand it requires a good flaring tool and some patience to learn how to double flare.

Oh... if you want to use the original style brake light switch, you will need to find the fitting with two of the 3/8" inverted flares and one with 1/8" NPT.

like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aa...0137/overview/
I think the specs are written wrong - he tube size should be 3/16" but the nut is 3/8" for the inverted ends... unless I'm missing something.

For the T-fitting where you separate out for each front brake, all three have the 3/8" inverted flare.

Like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hdt-lf-020/overview/

I think both of your T-fittings are incorrect.

Your lines look correct and will become conical (inverted flare) when you tighten them onto the matching fitting.

Thank you for doing this upgrade!

Kenny, Roger or anyone, please correct me if I have any of the sizes wrong. I think I wrote the sizes on the club parts bin before I handed it off.
__________________

Jeff Watson
Seattle, WA
'63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)

Last edited by Jeff W; 12-26-2013 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Forgot about the T question.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:30 PM
Luva65wagon's Avatar
Luva65wagon Luva65wagon is offline
Chapter President
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lynnwood
Posts: 4,419
Blog Entries: 4
I was just looking to see if we'd posted images or something on this. Here's a PDF Kenny posted a couple years ago:

http://www.cometeastcarclub.org/PDFs...erCylinder.pdf

But the important thing to look for are that the fittings you use are internal flare and not pipe thread fittings (like you show in your pictures). If you have the old T with male 1/8" pipe and two 3/16" internal flare you can use this to add the hydraulic switch in the line - just need a 1/8" npt female/female coupler. I wholly recommend also what Jeff recommends for fittings to the M/C. Gotta be good with the flare tool though. Double-flares are not something to take lightly. You can use adapter fittings for a worse-case, don't care how it looks, non OCD install. Checking for leaks is essential no matter what your method of assembly.

I know there was more information on the site. If I find it, I'll post more.
__________________
Roger Moore

63 "Flarechero"
powered by: '65 289-V8 | T5 | 8" TracLoc rear


Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:47 PM
Luva65wagon's Avatar
Luva65wagon Luva65wagon is offline
Chapter President
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lynnwood
Posts: 4,419
Blog Entries: 4
Another good thread

The thingI noticed after posting the above link and is also mentioned in the next is that Dick mentions nothing about the 3/16 to whatever size thread fitting is in the M/C. This thread addresses this a little better:

http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums...highlight=dual
__________________
Roger Moore

63 "Flarechero"
powered by: '65 289-V8 | T5 | 8" TracLoc rear


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:51 PM
Jeff W's Avatar
Jeff W Jeff W is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 3
Roger, are the tube nuts for 3/16" diameter brake line line actually 3/8"-24?

I think hey are but the more I look the more confused I become. I think it has something to do with the beer
__________________

Jeff Watson
Seattle, WA
'63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:56 PM
Jeff W's Avatar
Jeff W Jeff W is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 3
Guess Ebay knows all:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-16-Inverte...-/390717387105

3/16" fitting has 3/8" -24 threads.

Also much cheaper than Summit.
__________________

Jeff Watson
Seattle, WA
'63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-27-2013, 12:04 AM
Jeff W's Avatar
Jeff W Jeff W is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 3
Here are the adapters if you want to go that route -

BRAKE LINE ADAPTER FOR MASTER CYLINDER 1/2 20 male X 3/8 24 female:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAKE-LINE-A...74a5c2&vxp=mtr

BRAKE LINE ADAPTER FOR MASTER CYLINDER 9/16 18 male X 3/8 24 female:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAKE-LINE-A...09706b&vxp=mtr
__________________

Jeff Watson
Seattle, WA
'63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-27-2013, 03:43 AM
ew1usnr's Avatar
ew1usnr ew1usnr is offline
Senior Forum User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 846
Parts is parts.

Hello, guys.

Thanks for the quick and detailed responses. That was great! It will take me a while to read through them thoroughly and follow all the links. I am surprised that the directions I have are so incomplete.

I'll track the needed parts down and will describe my progress with further updates and/or more questions.

What started this was Jeff's quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff W View Post
I bet if it wasn't covered up by the crumpled fender, you would still see the original single bowl master cylinder. I hope the driver/passengers are not badly hurt. This picture is a good motivation for all to upgrade to 1967 technology and install the dual master cylinder.
It kind of freaked me out.

Last edited by ew1usnr; 12-27-2013 at 03:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-27-2013, 01:24 PM
SmithKid's Avatar
SmithKid SmithKid is offline
Paid Chapter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett
Posts: 926
I hope you won't consider this too "in your face", but please see this thread:
http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums...hlight=friends
regarding names. You're on here enough that I'm sure we all consider you a "Falcon Friend"!
Thanks.
__________________


Gene Smith
Everett, WA
'65 Ranchero Deluxe
302, 4-Spd
Granada Discs

Last edited by SmithKid; 12-27-2013 at 01:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-27-2013, 02:03 PM
Jeff W's Avatar
Jeff W Jeff W is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ew1usnr View Post

It kind of freaked me out.

That picture could have very well been my car excapt for a patch of good luck. The short story is; I was driving my Red Convertible down a very steep and busy hill and my front wheel cyclinder blew out. I lost 100% of my brakes. After a very scary few blocks, I was able to find a side street, took a wide turn and stopped on a small incline.

I am now the club advocate for this upgrade.
__________________

Jeff Watson
Seattle, WA
'63 Tudor Wagon (170 - 3 spd.)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-27-2013, 05:00 PM
ew1usnr's Avatar
ew1usnr ew1usnr is offline
Senior Forum User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithKid View Post
I hope you won't consider this too "in your face", but please see this thread regarding names. You're on here enough that I'm sure we all consider you a "Falcon Friend"! Thanks.

Hello, Gene. I did you one better and sent Kenny my dues. I'm a paid Rainier Falcons Club Member! You guys can now say that you have members from coast to coast. Or at least to the lower Gulf Coast. Just don't start razzin' me about never showing up for the meetings. I in-putted some info to the signature section. Let's see if anything shows up at the base of this post.

I went to O'Reilly's auto parts today at lunch. They pointed out that the two outlets from my master cylinder were different sizes (7/16” and ”), and that my brake lines with a Japanese 3/16” thread fitting were not the same as 3/16” U.S. thread fittings. Neither O'Reilly or NAPA had a 1/2" to 3/16" reducer, but O'Reilly had 1/2" to 1/4" and 7/16" to 3/16" reducers. So, I wound up with two sizes of brake lines, 1/4" and 3/16".
Adaptors.JPG

The 3/16" line goes to a flaired 3/16" tee for the front brakes. The 1/4" line goes to a 1/4" flaired coupling on a tee. The other slots on the tee take the brakelight switch and the 3/16" line from the rear brakes.
Brakelight switch.JPG

Here is the assembly. The lines need to be bent in creative loops, but I believe that it will fly. I will install it when my car comes back from the paint shop (Maybe in a couple of weeks?). This should have been done before painting the car, but ......
Assembly.JPG
__________________
Dennis Pierson
Tampa, FL
"The Wonder Falcon"

'63 Futura Hardtop (260, Ford-O-Matic, bench seat)

Last edited by ew1usnr; 12-27-2013 at 06:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:39 PM
redfalken's Avatar
redfalken redfalken is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,612
Blog Entries: 5
I used a broom handle to work my lines into a coil. Worked good, just go slow and the soft metal will make the big curve without kinking.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0359.jpg (106.4 KB, 23 views)
__________________

Kenny Likins
Ballard, Seattle, WA
www.redfalken.com

`62 Tudor Sedan (`69 200, C4, 8-inch 4-lug 2.79 rearend, Duraspark II, MSD, Weber 32/36 DGEV)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:50 PM
SmithKid's Avatar
SmithKid SmithKid is offline
Paid Chapter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett
Posts: 926
Dennis,
WELCOME to the club! I'll be proud to proclaim our "coast to coast" membership. Thank you! Your new signature looks good.
I too have the dual master cylinder conversion on my car. As a matter of fact, I beleive Kenny and Jeff actually performed the conversion on my car whilst a Tech Day was in progress at my house, as the club will usually do for members as a "service" if they supply the MC. So, maybe you should consider showing up for a Tech Day(?). OK..... maybe not. Kind of a long way (3103 mi) and I'd hate to see you do that on a single MC.
__________________


Gene Smith
Everett, WA
'65 Ranchero Deluxe
302, 4-Spd
Granada Discs

Last edited by SmithKid; 12-27-2013 at 07:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-27-2013, 07:26 PM
ew1usnr's Avatar
ew1usnr ew1usnr is offline
Senior Forum User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 846
3100 miles? A piece of cake.

Hello, Gene.

I really do have visions of hopping in this little car and just driving for a couple of weeks. When I got out of the Navy in 1983, I drove my 1977 Dodge Colt from Norfolk, VA, to Montreal Canada and then down to Orlando. I saw Mammoth Caverns in KY, camped on a mountain top in VT, and saw Niagara Falls. I'd love to do it again, but this time head out west while driving my Falcon. North Texas, the Great Plains, the Rockies, the High Sierras. My little Falcon powering up Pikes Peak. Mount St. Helens. To see giant Red Woods. Oooooh, that would be nice.


Back to the brake line fittings. Should I wrap all the threads with Teflon tape? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere.
__________________
Dennis Pierson
Tampa, FL
"The Wonder Falcon"

'63 Futura Hardtop (260, Ford-O-Matic, bench seat)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
converting to dual master cylinder questions cometcougar Tech Talk 14 07-13-2014 08:26 AM
Brake master cylinder BadBird Tech Talk 2 11-15-2013 11:42 PM
Master Cylinder Help Dalton Tech Talk 1 07-07-2011 05:22 PM
Conversion help Senior citizen Parts Wanted 6 09-07-2007 01:33 AM
Booster and dual master cylinder BadBird Tech Talk 12 03-02-2007 11:28 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.